SHE ATE HIS BRAIN AND SOME OF HIS TOES!

Whatever, she refused and maybe was in denial, but it still doesn't excuse her. She was told medication is necessary and it was for a reason. It wasn't for a headache or pain, the meds were for her metal health. Do you know how dangerous it is to have a loose cannon running around without med. Having a helpless child is a more extreme danger around a person who refuses to take their meds! Look at the child now. There is no excuse for her. Crazy or not, anyone who kills a life violently have no rights or excuses. I find it extremely disturbing that you are defending her. Imagine if it was your niece or nephew. Would you still be defending the person with medical knowledge?

Yes I know what she did and it's horrible. Really horrible.

However... the lack of insight associated with schizophrenia is not as simple as being 'in denial'. It is a complete inability to believe you are sick. No matter how much someone tries to persuade you you are sick you will NOT believe it. THIS is a symptom of schizophrenia. The fact she was told medication was necessary would have meant nothing to her, because she simply would not have believed it. She may well have believed her doctor was trying to poison her! If someone told you you needed to take a tablet for an illness you didn't believe you had, and you suspected they may be trying to drug and control you... would you just happily take it? Because THAT is how schizophrenics think.

Of COURSE I know how dangerous it is to have someone with severe schizophrenia 'running around' without her meds (I worked in psych for goodness sake! Not to mention I watched what schizophrenia did to one of my closest high school friends. A girl who was one of the sweetest, kindest, most intelligent people I knew... who can now barely socialise, does not have the mental capacity to complete university, and believes hitler is alive and that people are trying to control her through her TV...). And I have already said that for that reason I think those who WERE mentally stable, such as her doctors, social workers and her husband should have protected those children. That is where the blame SHOULD lie.

As for if it was a niece or nephew of mine, well, no I probably wouldn't be defending them. But not because they SHOULDN'T be defended, but because in that position I would not be able to look at the situation objectively... I would probably be taken over by hurt and grief at my loss. So although I would still have the knowledge to understand how it could have happened, I would probably still be very angry, because that is a natural human response to having a child taken away from you so cruelly. I think I would be far more angry at the psychiatrists who didn't force her to take her meds though... or at her husband for not taking the children away from her. Because they knew what they were doing and they had the understanding to make the right choice to protect that baby. But they didn't.

Sorry, I must have been having a bad day when I replied to you earlier, plus a migraine as well. So I didn't really feel like replying, thus the vague answer. I understand that she must have been in denial. I understand what schizophrenia is. I know what people go through. I have seen it happen to my step-mother. It's just a really disturbing thing that happened. It's very hard to look past what this woman has done, and see that she has a serious problem and she didn't know what she is doing. We just see the horrible act. I believe that if this woman lacked the insight to see that she was severely sick, then her doctors or family should have been more responsible and made sure she was safe to be around her child. Either way, it's a tragedy to the whole family. I just hope this woman gets help to where she doesn't harm herself or others again. I pray that baby died quickly and didn't have to suffer very long.

Apology accepted. I probably overreacted too, but the amount of ignorance (not meaning you, but others here) surrounding mental illness is something which concerns me greatly because I've seen the harm that that ignorance can do to people with mental health problems, not just my former patients, but one of my closest childhood friends, whose life has been destroyed by schizophenia.

And I agree with everything else you said. :)

I know how you feel RedFraggle. Maybe I take it personally because I have been there who knows, but I do know ignorance surrounding mental illness is almost worse then the mental illnesses themselves

Perhaps one day some of these people will experience it for themselves and be shocked into reality.

But yes, it's awful that in this day and age people with genuine DISEASES are still being treated in this way.

As hateful as people are towards mentally ill people, I would love for them to get a quick wake up call.

At the same time, I never want someone else to feel the guilt, pain, and heartbreak that ANY mental illness causes.

I'D SAY THAT APPLIES TO A LOT OF OTHER CONDITIONS/DISABLITIES AS WELL AS MENTAL ILLNESSES. EVERYTHING IS EASIER TO HANDLE WITH THE SUPPORT AND UNDERSTANDING OF OTHER PEOPLE, AND MADE A LOT WORSE WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S IGNORANCE.

Oh I completely agree, I think that disabilites that you cannot "see" like dislexia (spelling) or mental illnesses are things that people are more critical of because they often think the person is faking. They dont understand how damaging it can be, to not only your life, but you as a person.

For example, my husband has frontal lobe damage from Carbon Monoxide poisoning, and many people think he is using it as a crutch, but unless you are here day in and day out, repeating what you say a million times a day because he cannot remember, I dont think you have any room to make any comments.

Its easier to see someone in a wheelchair and feel sorry for them, or at least understand their disability, then it is to see someone so depressed they dont even have the motivation to shower, you just automatically think they are a lazy slob.

YES, YO - ANYTHING RELATED TO THE BRAIN, PEOPLE JUDGE BY THEIR OWN BRAIN. THEY THINK IF THEY CAN DO SOMETHING, THEN EVERYONE ELSE CAN, AND IF OTHER PEOPLE AREN'T DOING IT, THEN THEY ARE BEING LAZY OR BAD IN SOME WAY. HENCE THE WHOLE 'PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER' THING THAT GETS SAID TO PEOPLE WITH DEPRESSION - ALTHOUGH INTERESTINGLY DEPRESSION IS A LOT MORE ACCEPTED IN SOCIETY NOWADAYS.

yes, I agree, depression is a lot more accepted, but you are still looked down upon by a huge number of people and seen as a head case, or someone who cannot handle what life gives at you.

I just hope eventually people all understand the horrible ways mental illnesses impact the victims, and that includes the people sick.

Thats hoping for too much though, I doubt that will ever happen.

Very well put. There was a news story in The Times the other day about this bloke who can't get a job as a teacher, despite having a great degree, a post grad degree, and tons of experience with kids... all because he's bipolar. He has been on medication for it for years and it's all under control, but the second he mention it, people become very unwilling to hire him or even train him for some reason.

Physically disabled people don't tend to have such problems because I suppose it's easy to see what's wrong.

I THINK HEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM. PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY KNOWN PEOPLE WITH SEVERE PSYCHOTIC MENTAL ILLNESSES ARE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF IT. THOSE WHO HAVEN'T DON'T - THEIR BRAIN JUST DOESN'T GRASP IT, AND THEY CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND IT FROM THE PARAMETERS OF A 'NORMAL' BRAIN AND JUDGE ACCORDINGLY. AND BECAUSE PSYCHOTIC MENTAL ILLNESS IS KEPT VERY HUSH-HUSH IN OUR SOCIETY, MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ANYONE WITH IT, SO IGNORANCE PREVAILS.

I think the problem is more so fear. If you cannot blame the person who committed the horrid act, then who can you blame? Worse yet if you have to admit it could happen to ANYONE, because it is a hormonal, as well as brain issue, then you have to face the fact that maybe these people arent monsters and it could easily have been you.

A BIT OF BOTH, YO. FEAR IS BASED ON THE UNKNOWN. AND PEOPLE LIKE TO FEEL IN CONTROL OF LIFE - THEY LIKE TO FEEL SECURE THAT THEY CAN PREVENT ALL NASTY THINGS HAPPENING FROM THEM, AND THAT ALL THAT HAPPENS COULD AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED. BUT IN REALITY, THIS DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN. PEOPLE - AS IN ALL PEOPLE - MAKE MISTAKES AND OVERSIGHTS AND POOR JUDGEMENTS. WITH THE VAST MAJORITY, THESE MISTAKES DON'T HAVE DEVASTATING EFFECTS, SO THEY ARE EASILY OVERLOOKED, BUT POTENTIALLY ALL SUCH MISTAKES COULD HAVE SUCH EFFECTS.

MAYBE THIS WOMAN DIDN'T SEEM CRAZY TO THE HOSPITAL STAFF WHEN THEY LET HER GO HOME. MAYBE THEY'D HAD A THOUSAND OTHER NEW MOTHERS WITH A HISTORY OF CONTROLLED SCHIZOPHRENIA AND THESE MOTHERS HAD BEEN FINE, AND SO THEY DIDN'T THINK TO FOLLOW UP THE TINY CHANCE THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN TO HER, PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY MAY HAVE HAD A FEW BABIES'/MOTHERS' LIVES HANGING IN THE STAKE, DUE TO SOME BIRTHS HAVING UNEXPECTED COMPLICATIONS. YES, IN RETROSPECT, THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE, BUT THE FACT THAT THEY DIDN'T DOESN'T MAKE THEM EVIL PEOPLE EITHER - THEY WERE TAKING A CALCULATED RISK OF LIKELIHOOD, WHICH PEOPLE DO ALL THE TIME, YO. ANYONE HERE COULD POTENTIALLY BE THE MOTHER WHO ATE HER BABY'S BRAIN IF THEIR OWN BRAINS WENT TEMPORARILY PSYCHOTIC AFTER CHILDBIRTH. ANYONE HERE COULD ALSO BE THE MEDICAL STAFF WHO LET THE MOTHER GO HOME. DOESN'T MEAN THERE AREN'T CONSEQUENCES FOR SUCH BEHAVIOUR - HOWEVER, IT DOES MEAN THAT THE WHOLE 'THEM AND US' ATTITUDE IS A BIT SILLY, AS ARE JUDGEMENTS OF 'EVIL'.

I dont see it as them and us. I do think however, that the family who knew is just as responsible as the woman who did it. Is that a messed up way of seeing things? probably, but I know if I were the husband, who allowed my child to be left alone with my wife whom I knew wasnt on medicine and I knew she wasnt mentally stable then I would be blaming myself. I wouldnt be doing TV interviews, I would expect to be arrested on charges, because the law says I would be guilty.

I dont see the hospital staff as responsible as the family. I do think however any of her mental health doctors who knew she was off her medicine and bringing home a baby are responsible.

I do not condone what she did. I am also not making excuses for her, but she is not the only one responsible for this. Yes she stopped taking her medicine, but others did not need to leave the baby with her. Period. She should be in a mental ward for the rest of her life.

OH YES, LIKE, THERE ARE PROBABLY ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO STOP IT. DOES THE WOMAN HAVE A HUSBAND? IS HE THE OBSERVANT TYPE? MEN OFTEN AREN'T. DOES SHE HAVE ANY OTHER FAMILY? SO MANY ASPECTS TO CONSIDER. AND TO BE FAIR, THE HOSPITAL STAFF ARE PROBABLY MORE AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF A MOTHER GOING TOTALLY PSYCHOTIC AFTER CHILDBIRTH THAN THE MOTHER'S PARTNER WOULD BE. I IMAGINE IT HONESTLY WOULDN'T HAVE OCCURRED TO HIM AS A POSSIBILITY. OFTEN THOSE CLOSEST TO SOMEONE DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM. HARD TO TELL - WE DON'T KNOW WHAT SHE DISPLAYED IN FRONT OF HIM, NOR WHETHER HER BRAIN SUDDENLY SWITCHED TO TOTALLY PYSCHOTIC AFTER SEEMING RELATIVELY NORMAL, OR WHETHER THERE WAS A BUILD-UP. THAT'S WHY I DON'T PLAY THE BLAME GAME IN A SITUATION WHERE WE ARE BEING GIVEN A FEW CHOICE FACTS OUT OF THOUSANDS THAT ARE LEFT UNSAID, BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH WE DON'T KNOW, YO.

I understand what you are saying.

From what I know, he knew she was sick previous to her having the baby, so he should have seen it coming. Not to mention the fact that her sister was in the house when the little boy was killed.

Well, that's mature. :P

I guess you must be 'fucked up in the head' too then, since you say you too have experienced hallucinations in the past.

I wasn't talking about people judging her. I was talking about the fact you KEEP saying that she was responsible for her actions because she should have recognised she was sick and asked for her help. When it is a simple fact that one of the core features of schizophrenia is a lack of insight. They do not believe they are sick because the experience is so REAL to them. So of course many refuse medication. As I'm sure you would too if someone tried to force you to take medication you didn't believe you needed.

Clearly this is a fact that disputes your argument that she must be a bad person, and so rather than discuss it you resort to "blah blah blah". When people have that sort of attitude there will always be ignorance surrounding mental health problems. Very sad.

It appears as though most of the ignorant want to REMAIN ignorant, wouldn't you say?

Yes, that's the saddest thing. I have a few theories on this though... First is what Puck said... that many Americans see things in a more simplistic way, and have a need for someone to blame when they don't understand something. Rather than try to understand, they tend towards the 'she must be evil' way of thinking. I think Lauren made a good point too, that it's EASIER to think like that... because how can someone understand why a mother would do such a thing? How can they wrap their heads around the possibility it was due to an illness... it's just easier to assume she was a monster. It also gives them somewhere to direct their anger, which I think some people feel the need to do.

Secondly, I think having an excuse to attack someone, to condemn them as evil, may make some people doing so feel better about themselves. It almost gives a sense of power to be able to say "what an evil woman... I'D NEVER do something so awful" (even although in reality they cannot be so sure, because no-one knows what they would do if they were experiencing a psychotic episode)... it makes them feel superior.

I think it is also interesting to note that a few of her biggest attackers on here (and the ones who have no interest in hearing about the fact she had schizophrenia) are the same people whom I've seen make racist and anti-Christian comments in the past. This is hardly surprising, because these people see things very much in black and white and fail to see the shades of grey... as a result, every black person must be lazy and on government benefits... every Christian must be an extremist... and every person who does something terrible must be evil (couldn't possibly be because they were ill :P).

Anyway, just a few observations which I found interesting.

Look where that got her. A dismembered baby. That is irresponsible. She was an endangerment to her child. If she knew her condition, then she should of mentioned to someone that she needed to be left alone. That child would of had a chance at life. The child was basically a helpless victim and was left in the care of a loose cannon.

I still do not feel sorry for this woman. What happened to that child is just sick. I don't care if she is schizophrenic, she still committed a horrible act.

You say "look where that got her" as if she had a CHOICE in having insight into her condition or not. For like the hundredth time, a lack of insight (i.e. an inability to believe they are sick) is a SYMPTOM OF THE DISEASE! You cannot choose what symptoms you get when you get sick. If you got the flu... would it be fair of me to say to you, you should just choose not to cough? Of course not, because it's a symtom of the illness. JUST as a lack of insight is a symptom of schizophrenia.

She probably did NOT KNOW her condition (again, how many times do I have to say this). Because not believing they are sick is a symptom of the disease. Honestly, how many more times will I have to say it?

I do agree that the child should not have been in her care however. I would place more blame on the husband, who knew she was sick, and on the psychiatrists who didn't force her to take her meds, and on whatever doctors/social workers were involoved with the family, for not ensuring the children were safe. Because they DID have the insight and understanding to know something was wrong and should have recognised the dangers.

And I'm not denying that what she did was horrible. Of course it was.

Yes because all moms WANT to feel like they hate their baby after carrying it for 9 months. I WANTED to think of ways to get rid of her. I WANTED to be "crazy". Maybe you should do a little research on mental illnesses before you JUDGE someone.

Do I feel sorry for her? YES. Because if I feel the huge amount of guilt that I feel after only telling my husband how I hated my daughter, then I cannot imagine how this mother will feel when she gets healthy again. Do I think that she deserves a punishment? I think she needs to be locked up in a mental hospital for the rest of her life. But do I think judging a sick person is okay? Nope.

I also think the husband, and sister, and whomever else knew of her illness and still did nothing should be charged with neglagent homicide, because they KNEW she was a danger and didnt care.