Hopefully she took the sword to him before anything else and he was dead before all the other stuff happened.

From a legal standpoint, the fact that she said “the devil made me do it” shows that she knew what she was doing was wrong. That will make an insanity defense hard to prove. I’m not saying the woman isn’t crazy, but in order to be declared incompetent to stand trial, her attorney has to prove that at the time she killed the child, she did not know the difference between right and wrong. Should be an interesting case to follow.

HOW SO? SEVERELY MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE OFTEN THINK THE DEVIL IS TELLING THEM TO DO SOMETHING. OR INDEED GOD. THEY MAY GET GOD AND THE DEVIL CONFUSED. IF SHE'D SAID 'GOD MADE ME DO IT' WOULD YOU THINK THAT THIS MEANT SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS DOING RIGHT?

THE DEVIL AND GOD JUST BECOME POWERFUL CHARACTERS IN A MENTALLY ILL PERSON'S MIND, WHOM THEY FEEL ARE CONTROLLING THEM (OR INDEED IT COULD BE MADONNA OR GEORGE BUSH MAKING THEM DO SOMETHING, OR ALIENS, OR HUMPTY DUMPTY). SHE MAY HAVE FELT SHE HAD ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE BECAUSE SOME POWERFUL FORCE WAS MAKING HER DO IT. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RIGHT AND WRONG.

I'm not saying that this woman isn't crazy. In order to do something as horrible as this, she must have been extremely disturbed. However,there is a difference between being insane and being deemed incompetent to stand trial, from a legal standpoint.

In order to declare a defendant legally insane, Texas requires a showing that a defendant could not distinguish right from wrong. Thus, even if this woman was obeying Satan, she was still sane if she knew it was wrong on some level. It is a tough standard to meet, and the reason Andrea Yates was convicted and sentenced to live in prison the first time she was tried.

I hope explains my point.

I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH THE LOGIC THAT SAYING YOU ARE OBEYING SATAN MAKES YOU KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG. I ALSO THINK IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO JUDGE A PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF RIGHT AND WRONG, AND THAT 'ON SOME LEVEL' IS NOT REALLY SUFFICIENT.

A PERSON MIGHT 'ON SOME LEVEL' KNOW THAT SOMETHING IS GIVEN THE WORD 'WRONG', BUT THEY MAY HAVE NO EMOTIONAL OR CONCEPTUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THAT MEANS OR WHAT THE NATURAL CONSEQUENCES ARE. A PERSON MAY HAVE AN ABSTRACT LIST IN THEIR HEAD OF 'WRONG' THINGS - LIKE FARTING IN PUBLIC, AND EATING BABIES - AND YET HAVE NO REAL WAY OF DISTINGUISHING OR UNDERSTANDING. THE WOMAN MAY NOT HAVE ACTUALLY UNDERSTOOD THAT WHAT SHE WAS DOING WOULD KILL THE BABY, BECAUSE SHE MIGHT HAVE LOST ALL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND DEATH. SHE MAY HAVE EQUATED IT WITH FARTING IN PUBLIC (I REALISE THAT IS A SILLY EXAMPLE, BUT HOPEFULLY YOU GET MY POINT). I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A CERTAIN LEVEL AND DEPTH OF UNDERSTANDING OF RIGHT AND WRONG - NOT JUST 'ON SOME LEVEL'. RIGHT AND WRONG ARE SUCH ABSTRACT AND IN-DEPTH CONCEPTS.

I DO KNOW THAT AMERICA HAS TRADITIONALLY ALWAYS CONDEMNED MOTHERS WHO HAVE GONE TEMPORARILY INSANE AS CRIMINAL AND EVIL WHEREAS THE BRITISH JUSTICE SYSTEM ACCEPTS THAT THIS INSANITY THING CAN HAPPEN TO WOMEN THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, SO OUR TWO COUNTRIES HAVE HAD DIFFERENT WAYS OF DEALING WITH IT, AND THIS MAY ACCOUNT FOR DIFFERENT REACTIONS OF BRITS AND AMERICANS.

What makes me wonder though, if even if they aren't fit to stand trial and get off.....

What about them succumbing to guilt and committing suicide over their past actions when they get the chance?

Assuming that they feel such horrible and oppressive guilt, that is.

Then the trial and court and prison would only server to preserve them.

And thus, room for debate on right to live/right to die based on mental guilt and actions.

Go!

There is a difference between "the devil told me to do it" and "the devil made me do it." I mean, either way, it's a good ground for insanity, but on the chance that you're in a severly Christian court room, "the devil made me do it," is different.

YOU THINK THAT A CHRISTIAN COURTROOM MIGHT SERIOUSLY BELIEVE THIS WOMAN WAS IN LEAGUE WITH THE DEVIL AND WORKING WITH HIM FROM SHEER EVIL CHOICE, BECAUSE SHE WAS REJECTING GOD, AND THAT SHE AND THE DEVIL DID THIS TOGETHER IN COLD BLOOD?

IF SO, MY OPINION OF THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM HAS TOTALLY FALLEN DOWN A FEW HUNDRED NOTCHES.

If only I could be as surprised as you are about the true stupidity of the American people in general.

Which brings us to rule #1: Never, ever underestimate the stupidity of people in numbers.

I think it is demonstrated right here in this forum actually. Thanks to Bloop I'm never surprised by the stupidity of some Americans.

Again, if this were facebook, I'd like this comment.

I used to feel the way a lot of others feel about these situations, until I got PPD so bad that I remember crying on my bed telling my husband that my youngest daughter was the worst mistake I have ever made. I refused to hold her, hug her, feed her, or anything. When I got help for it of course I felt like crap afterwards, I still do, but to be honest I had no control over it. I feel for the mother, i really do.

i understand that there is PPD but what i dont understand is if that mother didnt want that baby, felt that baby was a threat, or wished it never existed, etc she had many other options.

while you were going through your PPD did you ever think you wanted to physically make her go away (i.e. get to the point u wanted to kill her)? u dont have to answer if you dont want to as i know its completely and way too personal a question.

i can only speak from a spectators POV as i havent had PPD. But i would hope to think that if i got to that point where i knew something wasnt right, or i wanted to hurt my baby i would give the baby to someone who could take care of it and then get my much needed help.

Does this make sense?

Yes it makes sense, but I did get to that point. I laid in bed and seriously contemplated it. Does that make me feel like a horrible person to admit that? Yes it does, but I was sick. I was seriously ill, because in my healthy frame of mind I will die for my children, both of them. The only reason I didnt hurt her was my husband took care of her, and I didnt. I didnt deal with her. I freaked out. I lost it. I didnt want her, and at that point I would have much preferred she disappeared. Thank the lord I had my husband there to take care of her, because I cant imagine how I would feel if I actually hurt her like I wanted.

You dont think straight when you have PPD, you dont say "oh this doesnt feel right maybe I should call someone" you think you are healthy and everything is okay, little do YOU know its really not okay.

I'm so glad you've said this on here. I can't imagine it's easy to be so honest, when so many people are so ignorant of such issues, and whom are so quick to judge and to blame. Hopefully people like you, who've experienced it themselves can help these people to see that things aren't as black and white as they think.

i understand that there is PPD but what i dont understand is if that mother didnt want that baby, felt that baby was a threat, or wished it never existed, etc she had many other options.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS PPD, YO. LIKE IT IS FULL-BLOWN INSANITY - TO FEEL THAT THAT THE BABY WAS A THREAT OR WISH IT DIDN'T EXIST WOULD REQUIRE SOME FORM OF RATIONAL THINKING, WARPED THOUGH IT MAY BE. THERE IS NO RATIONAL JUMP FROM 'THIS BABY IS A THREAT AND I WISH IT DIDN'T EXIST' TO 'I WILL NOW EAT ITS BRAINS'. THE MOTHER'S BRAIN WAS CLEARLY TOTALLY NOT WORKING IN ANY KIND OF EVEN SLIGHTLY FUNCTIONAL FASHION.

AND I THINK MOST MOTHERS ARE ABLE TO REALISE SOMETHING IS WRONG AND GET HELP WHEN THEY HAVE PPD. ALAS, THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN WITH COMPLETE MADNESS - THE BRAIN IS JUST, LIKE, ON A DIFFERENT PLANET. I WOULD ALSO IMAGINE THIS WOMAN PROBABLY DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A SUPPORT NETWORK - LIKE IF A MOTHER HAS CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY AROUND HER, THEN THEY WILL SEE THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG.

There are psychotic forms of post natal depression. Many psychiatric units have special mother and baby units especially for such patients. I've worked on one, and I've seen just how bad it can be.

AH, OKAY - I THINK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING, BUT I DIDN'T REALISE IT WAS STILL LABELLED AS 'DEPRESSION' WHEN IT WAS POST NATAL PSYCHOSIS, YO. I ASSUMED IT HAD A DIFFERENT NAME. BUT YES, THAT IS WHAT I MEANT, YO.

Yes, we're talking about the same thing. Technically yes, they're two seperate conditions, but they come under the same group of disorders in the classification of psychiatric disorders (at least in the ICD10 which we use in the UK...), and I tend to refer to puerperal psychosis as 'psychotic postnatal depression' purely because I think people with little knowledge of psychiatric illness will at least have heard of postnatal depression.

But yes, they are strictly speaking seperate conditions.

The only women who recognize they have PPD are the women who very moderately have it, and even then many still don't recognize it as PPD. Those with severe PPD don't tend to recognize they have PPD at all, and most times don't even realize something is wrong. Once you get to the point of actually wanting to hurt your baby, you've gotten to the point of severe PPD and won't even consider it a possibility. Even women who do get to that point of WANTING to hurt their baby because of PPD will fight tooth and nail when someone even suggests they have PPD and say that everything is alright and they don't understand why it would be suggested.

As for this woman, this is not a simple case of PPD. What has been presented suggests an underlying mental disorder that was somehow triggered, possibly by the PPD coupled with the stress of a significant other leaving her.

Not necessarily. Women can develop psychotic post natal depression without any underlying psychiatric problems.

I understand that. Poor choice of wording I suppose.

Sorry, I misread your post, and didn't realise you were referring to this specific woman. I hadn't realised she had been suffering from schizophrenia.