This.

Agreed, and not only that, but you'll always get "those people" who constantly do everything in their power in life to be that one exception to everything.

Clearly they didn't get their stats from Bloopers, yo! Plenty of thick atheists and liberals here! ;D

Although, seriously, I do find that the really hardcore fundies are afraid to question things, and so they don't develop their intelligence. It's not that they aren't intelligent, but they are afraid to develop it. Often they don't go to uni, or if they do, they shelter themselves from the other students. But then, really hardcore atheists don't question either - they have a lot in common with the fundies, actually.

Aye... once you start to question life, things get scary. That's why many incredibly creative/intelligent people in history were also crazy. xD

i don't agree at all...maybe there are some...but liberals and atheists seem to be close minded...so how would they be open to new ideas, when they have they're own opinion.

*their

I'd say liberals and atheists are the least closed minded. I considered doing theology at uni because other people's beliefs interest me so much. A lot of the time people become atheists after questioning what they have been taught and rejecting it. You can't force faith. That is hardly 'close minded'.

I take it you're religious... are you open to new ideas?

Actually yes I can...everyone has their own ideas and beliefs. Freedom of Religion. I have my own beliefs, but I don't judge others for their opinions. As far as being more intelligent, i DON'T believe that.

Well then, don't come here saying atheists are closed minded when I at least am anything but.

AF, yo, relax.

You've opened up a discussion thread, one that you knew would receive opposing views, especially with the stigma that surrounds this topic. You should know as well as anyone on here that there are people from both sides who are as closed minded as the most fundamentalist Christian or the most extreme atheist.

Argue opposing points, don't fight them.

Do you not think it's more open minded to be agnostic than atheist, yo? Like, atheists believe there is definitely no god. They are not at all open to the possibility that they might be wrong and that there might be a god, or maybe several gods. But agnostics believe that they can't know for certain, so they are open to there either being no god or a god. My dad and my uncle are often having this argument - my dad is agnostic and my uncle is atheist.

Well I used to be agnostic, but I just lack faith! You can't have belief in a deity without faith, yo! I have tinkered with different religions, I tried to read the Bible when I was about 15 but couldn't take it seriously, and I got into Wicca after that but try as I might, couldn't get myself to believe in what they believe. I am open to hearing what a lot of religious people say; I have quite a few friends that are religious but unfortunately the loud, preachy ones dominate the quieter, let's all get along types!

Agnostics are definitely more open minded than atheists and theists alike but nobody likes a fence sitter! ;D

Agnostic refers to the lack of knowledge, not faith. Atheism refers to faith. Agnostic atheist = I have no knowledge of whether or not there is a god, nor do I have faith in one. Agnostic Theist = I have no knowledge of whether or not there is a god, but I have faith in one.

You can be an agnostic (a)theist, or a gnostic (a)theist.

This also goes for Estella.

Okay, what about... 'I have no knowledge of whether or not there is a god, and I don't know if I have faith in one'? xD That's my boyfriend's classification. He simply calls himself agnostic because he doesn't know whether or not God exists, and therefore (or otherwise xD) doesn't know whether he should have faith in one. When he talks to fundie Christians, he's like 'Oh, man. Christianity sounds like a pile of crap'. But when he hears my take on Christianity, he thinks 'well that's not too bad, I could actually get used to that'. So he's in middle ground on the 'faith' classification.

But then that kinda defeats the purpose of faith... not knowing whether or not it's there, but believing that it is regardless... right?

*I* don't know for sure whether God exists, but I'd like him to, since I believe that He exists, blah blah. So I guess I have faith. But is faith simply believing, or KNOWING? Is there such thing as a gnostic theist (or atheist for that matter)? Because 'knowing' God exists, unlike knowing anything else in the world (the sky is blue, gravity makes things fall, etc), is, I think, pretty subjective. Maybe that's just the scientist in me talking.

Argh, this is screwing with my head. xD Post-prandial philosophy. xD

So you are saying atheists say 'There might be a god, but I don't have faith in him if there is'? That is not the traditionally accepted meaning of atheist, yo - atheists deny the existance of a God. The word literally means 'no-god-ist'. Whereas agnostics believe 'that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and unknowable'.

Well I am atheist and I don't believe in God. I reject the idea that he exists. I don't care what the proper name for it is, dammit! ;)

The dictionary defines the word as a lack of belief of a deity's existence, which is also traditionally accepted, though these definitions are often incorrectly interchanged.

Gnostic Theist - Has faith in, and knows for a fact that a God exists.
Agnostic Theist - Has faith in, but has no concrete knowledge of a God's existence.
Gnostic Atheist - Has no faith in, and knows for a fact that a God doesn't exist.
Agnostic Atheist - Has no faith in, yet has no knowledge of a God's existence.

Interesting, I never realized there were so many different combinations - I always thought it was just agnostic and atheist. But these still don't cover everything because after reading through these definitions, none of them describe my own beliefs. For me, it has nothing to do with whether or not I have faith or know if god exists - these things have absolutely no relevance to me at this point in my life. Having or not having faith has no meaning to me at all... I've never really found it necesary to identify myself religiously. I wonder what they would call that? Maybe just apathy? Haha. :)
I think I'd hate to just call myself apathetic though, it's such a passive word. And in terms of spirituality, I'm not passive at all.

Isn't faith one of those things that you either have or don't, no in between? I mean, if you don't have any faith, then you don't, and you define as an atheist.

Hmmm... but I can't be atheist because I don't believe that god doesn't exist... nor do I believe that he does exist. Which would probably place me more in the definition of agnosticism, but that one doesn't sit well with me either lol. :P Those four definitions are all about having firm beliefs about something, whereas I don't really have any beliefs about religion or god because neither of those things mean anything to me.
It's too late at night for me to be thinking concretely about these things, I need sleep lol.

Well, yeah, that's what I mean - it's really either, you believe in it, you don't, or you hold the position that you have no knowledge of God's existence, which would lump you into the agnostic category - which isn't a firm belief.

How about a word with a bit more punch (but might ring true to you): humanism?

(From Wikipedia, my trusted source for everything xD)

"Humanism... is a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition. ... [It] is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality."

'Not theistic' doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in God, just that God doesn't factor into this way of thinking (at least, that's how I interpret it).

I like that! :) I've always heard the word, but never been interested enough to look it up lol.
That one fits me the most. And what you said - that god doesn't factor into this way of thinking - that's exactly what I was trying to get at.
I find spirituality through love and interactions with other people/animals... nothing to do with anything supernatural.

Like movielayouts, I think this definition would fit me a bit better, but from time to time I find myself placing a little bit of faith in supernatural ideas.

I unno. I guess I'm just religiouslyphilosophicallyclusterfuckedconfused.

:-p

There'd be very few people that KNOW that God doesn't or does exist... and they'd be the ones who have concluded one or the other through their experiences. For example (I'm making these up for the purpose of illustrating my point)...

'I was driving, and someone crashed into me, hard. I was shaken, but otherwise alive. I know there is a God, because He saved me!'

'I was driving, and someone crashed into me, hard. My partner was killed. I am devastated. There is no God.'

These are extreme examples, but what I'm trying to say is that unlike many accepted facts that everyone 'knows', the existence of God is hardly an accepted fact among everyone, and 'knowing' about His existence is very much shaped by our experiences and our intepretation of them. I've known people come out of crisis with a new-found belief in God's existence, or a completely shattered belief. So it is a different sort of 'knowing' to knowing that bananas are yellow. But I guess for the individual, it doesn't matter. For each person, God exists/doesn't exist as much as bananas are yellow (except for the people who don't KNOW but are willing to believe that He might).

Yeah, that's exactly what it means. I probably should have clarified better. A gnostic is basically someone who believes they have knowledge of a God. A gnostic theist is someone who thinks they know, 100% no bullshit, of a God's existence. This title is usually reserved for the fundamentalists.

Most Christians would be categorized as agnostic theists, if they thought about it.