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Discussion Forums » General Discussion
No-Kids-Allowed Movement Gains Steam
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28 Jul 2011, 02:10
kein mitleid
Post Count: 592
http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110/
LINK

The no-kids-allowed movement is spreading

by Piper Weiss, Shine Staff, on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:52pm PDT

What's the matter with kids today and why doesn't anyone want them around? In June, Malaysia Airlines banned babies from many of their first class cabins, prompting other major airlines to consider similar policies.

Lately, complaints about screaming kids are being taken seriously, not only by airlines, but by hotels, movie theaters, restaurants, and even grocery stores.

Read more about restaurants around the country banning kids.

Earlier this month, McDain's, a Pittsburgh area restaurant that banned kids under 6 became a mascot for the no-kids-zone movement.

According to a Pittsburgh local news poll, more than half of area residents were in favor of the ban. And now big business is paying attention.

"Brat bans could well be the next frontier in destination and leisure-product marketing," writes Robert Klara in an article on the child-free trend in AdWeek.

Klara points to Leavethembehind.com, a travel website for kid-free vacations, with a massive list of yoga retreats, luxury resorts and bargain hotels around the world that ban children.

"Call me a grinch, a misanthrope, a DINK (dual-income-no-kids), or the anti-cute-police, but I hate (hate a thousand times over) ill-behaved children/infants/screaming banshees in upscale restaurants (ok, anywhere, really, but I don’t want any death threats)," writes Charlotte Savino on Travel and Leisure's blog. She lists a slew of a popular destination restaurants with kid-free areas and policies for travelers looking for quiet vacation dining.

Traveling is one thing, but what about in kids' own hometowns? Should kids been banned from local movie theaters, like they were at a recent adults-only Harry Potter screening? In Texas, one cinema chain has even flipped the model, banning kids under six altogether, except on specified "baby days".

Even running errands with toddlers may be changing. This summer Whole Foods stores in Missouri are offering child-free shopping hours (kids are allowed inside but childcare service is available for parents who want to shop kid-free.) Meanwhile in Florida, a controversy brews over whether kids can be banned from a condominium's outdoor area. That's right, some people don't even want kids outdoors.

When did kids become the equivalent of second-hand smoke? Blame a wave of childless adults with money to spare. "Empty nesters continue to wield a huge swath of discretionary spending dollars, and population dips in first-world countries mean more childless couples than ever," writes AdWeek's Klara.

Catering to the child-free community may be good for business but is it good for parents? It could help narrow choices and make kid-friendly environments even kid-friendlier. And let's be honest, babies won't miss flying first class. They won't even remember it. But their moms and dads will.

Most parents with young children have self-imposed limits on spending and leisure. This new movement imposes limits set by the public. And the public isn't as child-friendly as it used to be. As businesses respond to their new breed of 'first-class' clientele, are parents in danger of becoming second-class citizens?



All I can think is... HELLS YEAH!!!!
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28 Jul 2011, 21:33
raen
Post Count: 79
I am not a fan of kids, so I'm pretty pleased about no kids in certain places. Nothing irks me like a misbehaved child roaming my place of employment, screaming and shoving products in places they shouldn't be.
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3 Aug 2011, 13:07
Mojo Jojo
Post Count: 278
Says more about the lack of quality parenting than about people's attitudes. Nobody likes a screaming kid when they're eating their dinner, but why the hell isn't the parent dealing with it?
Airlines - bit different. Kids get arsey on flights and you can't just...pop outside to deal with the howling.
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3 Aug 2011, 23:39
kein mitleid
Post Count: 592
Yeah, that's why they should just have all the kids + parents moved toward the back of the plane. It's already loud back there because of the engines, so it should help drown them out.
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28 Jul 2011, 02:13
Leona Wren
Post Count: 425
I find it extremely disturbing that this person says they have "infants" as well. So now our children, including our infants who solely rely on us for life, are considered brats and undeserving of going certain places? Puh-lease. I have seen adult behavior sometimes WORSE than that of young children.
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28 Jul 2011, 02:46
Unauthorized
Post Count: 72
I despise screaming bratty children anywhere. I do. But, I'm also a mom, and I know despite all efforts sometimes this is unavoidable. I've experienced a handful of times with Alex being irritable and inconsolable, usually as a result of him feeling poorly, not out of a desire to be a brat and make my life hell.

That entire article..is a bunch of crap, to me. It fails to address the real problem. The PARENTS of the bratty child. Behind every child I have ever met or witnessed throwing a tantrum and screaming, is a 'parent' doing the same. Where do you think the kid learns it? I agree bratty children would be better off not allowed in certain areas, but it's really not their fault.

And..how is that fair to the well behaved, polite children? Honestly..I can never imagine me saying: "Alex, I'm sorry son, but you have to stay home. You just aren't good enough to be allowed in. You aren't special."

That's brilliant...
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28 Jul 2011, 03:10
kein mitleid
Post Count: 592
@Unauthorized:
It's completely fair to the children, in the same way they're denied entrance to certain ratings of films. It doesn't matter how "mature" your child might be (or in this particular case, well-behaved), the fact is that they have determined that enough children aren't, and therefore, are denied entry. Feel free to take them to another movie (restaurant) more appropriate for their age group.
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28 Jul 2011, 03:30
Unauthorized
Post Count: 72
I can agree with some of the points in favor of this, as I somewhat mentioned before..It is definitely a good plan, in some settings. For some, not so much. What truly gets to me..is the fact that the collective group of moron parents ruin things for the rest of us. Those of us in possession of some common sense. Or the non-parents that judge all parents and label them all the same and therefore all children are brats..

I realize it's impossible to weed out all the bratty children because I'm sure they are the majority. And, you certainly can't tell a whining parent to make adjustments and fix their issues..

I suppose what I was about to say is really unimportant, as I avoid situations/outings I don't think my son is mature enough to handle. So..if the bans continued to spread, it would probably not affect me or him, truthfully.

Oprah: About the idiot mother taking her 4 year old twins to a midnight movie..well, there are some wonderfully intelligent people out there..

I just wanted to make my point that all not parents are fantastic failures and neither are their children..I'm not attacking you or anyone that posted in favor. I'm just saying. If this works in such a way that it makes some parents try harder to raise better kids, then I'd be completely in favor. Sadly, I don't think anything has the power to make that happen..
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28 Jul 2011, 02:59
Betch.
Post Count: 111
OH GOOD LORD YES. I can't stand screaming kids, but at the same time i dont blame the KIDS, i blame the parents. If your kid is having a complete psychological MELTDOWN in the middle of a restaurant, you need to LEAVE. Remove the brat from the general public, clearly they're destroying everyone else's experience. I like kids, but the screaming tantrum ones can all drown in a ball pit. And at Queenbutterfly, i agree to a point. The problem is that adults can be held responsible for their actions, and if shit gets REALLY intense COPS get called and they are forced out of wherever they're causing a scene. You can't tell a child that if they dont stop creating a scene they'll be kicked out, and even if you did you'd send their parents on a tyrade and if you even suggest that maybe they should take their child and leave they're gonna cause an even bigger scene. It just saves a lot of un-needed headaches to be like "no kids allowed, period." and on another note, i really can't see places like...Applebees, or Friendly's, or anyplace that people would NORMALLY bring small children when going out to eat banning children. If you take your (under six year old) child to a four star or better restaurant, you're asking for trouble to begin with.
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28 Jul 2011, 02:59
Oprah Noodlemantra
Post Count: 300
I think it's a brilliant idea. Speaking as someone with no kids (and no plans to have any), I don't like being around them, unless I choose it. I work at a school, I nanny during the summer, and if I want to go to a movie, go shopping, or just enjoy some 'quiet' time without kids, I shouldn't have to lock myself up in my house. I understand that yes, it's the fault of the PARENTS, and not the kids, but maybe by doing things like this for a while, parents will wise up and actually start PARENTING.
I (or any other adult for that matter) shouldn't have to put up with yes, bratty kids who scream and yell and throw fits. I understand that if I walk into the toy department of Wal-Mart, I'll hear yelling and crying, but when I went to the midnight HP premiere, there was no reason for a woman to bring her 4-year-old twins. No reason at all.
It's not about telling kids that they're not 'special', it's about telling them that hey, throwing fits and being obnoxious has consequences.
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28 Jul 2011, 03:06
kein mitleid
Post Count: 592
+1 Hehe... If I know a business has a "no-kids" policy, I'm more likely to go there. If I'm going to pay $20+ per plate at a restaurant, I don't want a bunch of kids running around, and I don't want to hear screaming and whining and whatnot. I want to enjoy a nice meal. Privately-owned business are allowed to operate as they see fit, and are allowed to deny service to anyone at any time.

They should create a "children's" section in the back of the airplane. First off, it's already noisy back there, so the loud engines will probably drown them out. I bring headphones + earplugs on every flight anyway, but I can't tell you how frequently, and obnoxiously, I've been on an airplane where a kid was in the seat behind me screaming his head off, throwing a fit, and constantly bumping my seat. It's bad enough to get packed in like sardines. For one, despite my earplugs being rated 29 dB (I use them for shooting, after all), a child's shrill scream still cuts right through them. Yet I'm the bad guy for telling the parents to "control their child."
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29 Jul 2011, 04:34
American
Post Count: 221
+1
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28 Jul 2011, 03:09
derdoppelganger
Post Count: 26
There are pros and cons, but basically... this is fucking awesome. There's nothing more grating than a screeching child on an airplane, or a nice meal ruined by some ill-behaved heathen yelling and flailing about. I think that, by and large, parents need to use more discretion when it comes to where they take their children. I've noticed a trend of parents taking their kids to completely inappropriate places, so really, this sort of ban is necessary in my mind. Use some common sense and find a sitter if you even have an INKLING of a thought that perhaps it isn't a child-friendly place.
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28 Jul 2011, 03:14
.love.struck.
Post Count: 492
I think it's a great idea and I have a 11 month old. Planes are hard though so i do blame kids for acting like that. On the other hand, I seem some parents let their kids run a muck and that is wrong. They need to be parents and correct those kids. I hate parents like that!
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28 Jul 2011, 05:07
& skull.
Post Count: 1701
kids scream, fact of life. sometimes they just can't be consoled, no matter how good you actually are as a parent. i can understand that, and while it's annoying as long as the parent is actively trying to do something about it, i won't get angry. the thing that pisses me off is, the kids that are running around screaming and carrying on and the parents just sitting and ignoring it. how does that not embarrass them? that they can't raise their kids to just sit the fuck down and be calm in public? i don't know about everyone else, but by a certain age [when i was aware enough of myself and other people to know that screaming at the top of my lungs in public would cause unwanted attention and irritate people] i was expected to sit quietly whenever we were out. my family would go to kid-friendly places to eat where we could run around on the play areas, but at places that didn't, our asses stayed on our chair and our voices remained at indoor level. i don't understand parents that let their brats run around like wild animals, pissing everyone off and quite frankly, being a hazard to people. have you ever had a kid run right into you at a supermarket? or seen one knock over a waitress carrying stuff? you can't even be rightfully pissed off less you enrage the parent of the of so lovely angel that just made you drop your shit everywhere.

i work at a liquor store, where there is a LOT of wine bottles. i see kids running around and playing hide and seek behind boxes of wine stacked taller than they are. it's the one place i can rightfully tell the little fuckers to stop doing that. if the parents get narky at me i just tell them the store is NOT a playground and that the kid could hurt themself or others by knocking over bottles. if they get shitty, i get a manager.

maybe if kids weren't getting worse with every generation, then we wouldn't need kid bans. but really until parents stop being fucking useless at parenting, then i say bring on the bans. [i understand not every parent is shit, i know plenty of decent ones, they just seem to be a minority these days.]
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28 Jul 2011, 09:11
Transit
Post Count: 1096
I do think this is a good idea, in the UK there are already adult only hotels, and some restaurants do not allow young children, then of course some licensed properties cannot have children enter either. If you can access child friendly places, then why can't we as adults access adult friendly places?

I do think it would be a good idea to have a separate area on aeroplanes, especially on longer flights when young children are likely to become bored, and so whether they have good parents are not, they are likely to misbehave. The last time I was on an aeroplane I had the joy of a child (about three) kicking the back of my seat the whole way home on a night flight, while mum and dad had ear plugs in, eye masks on and decided to go to sleep and ignore her! If I could choose to be in a none child area of an aeroplane I would, just as if I were to take young children on a flight I would choose to sit in the child friendly area out of respect for other passengers.

I must admit I see very few parents being responsible in public, of course all children cry etc, but it isn't necessarily the behaviour of the child, it is the reaction of the parent, I have been in restaurants with children running around, I have been somewhere where this has lead to the child running into a waitress carrying food, so not only is that a safety issue, but also that is money lost as the meal has to be made again, and the customer has the inconvenience of waiting longer. I also think establishments have a duty as well, if a child is running around I think the family should be asked to leave, if you're in a restaurant the only time you shouldn't be seated is when you are going to the toilet, sadly due to many parents being no less than abusive when their parenting is put into question many people are now too scared to tackle problem children.

I used to work in a shop and children were often a nightmare, many were left to just run around the shop, yet if they had hurt themselves on something their parents would have immediately blamed us, or their would be the typical parent who can't really be bothered, so they would just be screaming the child's name, because walking ten metres to punish your child is just sooo much effort. Most parents would also allow their children to completely trash the children's magazine section, so in the end it would turn into one massive pile, then after much begging they would buy them some sweets and then let them discard the wrapper either inside the shop, or outside, so either way we still had to clean it up.

I love the idea of child free hotels, I'm going on holiday soon and we will be avoiding anywhere with the words "child friendly" or "kids club" I want to relax by the pool, not listen to squealing while I get soaked by children jumping into the pool, I also don't want children running around me while I'm on the beach, I don't want to be completely smothered in sand.

As children my sister and I did not misbehave in public, we knew not to, and at that time it was very rare to see children misbehaving in public, yet now parents seem to believe it is normal, and they say "oh, they're just kids" no, they just have no boundaries or respect. My nephew for example, he is a lovely child, however he is allowed to get his own way, so if he throws a tantrum while out he is bought a toy, because his parents would rather do that than actually tackle the issues they have created.

Parenting has become so bad in the UK that children are starting school (age 4) who aren't toiled trained and who cannot even use a knife and fork! If there are parents out there who consider this too much effort, it isn't a shock that we do have so many ill behaved children around.
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28 Jul 2011, 09:25
KerriBlue
Post Count: 260
I love kids, I work with kids, I want a couple hundred myself (Ok...two), I can't wait to have kids, kids are awesome. Most of the time.

-However-

I just went on a trip over to Abu Dhabi and the UK. So I had 2 flights there and 2 flights back. I started off the trip thinking kids were adorable and I came back on the verge of tears and pulling my hair out. The flight there was beyond painful. There were....ok I'm sorry...I'm going to get my culture wrong here but I think they were Indian BUT they could have been from Abu Dhabi or Dubai I don't know. Anyway my friend told me that in their culture they believe in letting the child cry it out and so...that's what they did. The first flight was 14 hours at night and they let this baby CRY. And cry. And cry. Until finally someone yelled at them (I'm not kidding) to shut it up. I think everyone in the cabin was thinking the exact same thing but didn't want to say anything. That baby was crying for HOURS.

I think it got a bit easier after that but it was still painful. The second flight was 8 hours and I think there were quite a few babies on that flight, actually there was but I saw that baby in customs and I'm pretty sure it had a fever or something which was causing it to act up a bit.

The flights back totalled 24 hours. One child would have been...just over a year old and it was screaming and crying on and off. Half during moments of fun and games, the other half just because it wasn't getting attention.

My two friends (who HATE children) were in hell, I had to keep them calm, the first flight I kept telling them "They can't help it, they're only babies. There's not much the parents can do. Sometimes it's quite painful to fly for them. They're bored." etc. (I remember flying when I was young and when my ears popped it hurt like....yeh) But my friends kept saying "I wish they had adult only flights"

I still believe that during a flight...there's very little parents can do - I mean they can comfort the child, feed the child, try and put him/her to sleep, keep him/her occupied etc....but I'm now more sympathetic to people who want adult only flights. I want adult only flights. Long flights are painful and stressful enough, add a screaming child to the mix and I nearly turned into a screaming, crying child.

Like I keep saying, I'm sympathetic to parents because I understand how travelling with young children can be difficult. You have places to be and people to see just as much as anyone else. Just because they're children doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to travel. They should.

My opinion - It couldn't really hurt anyone if there were adult only flights.

(Yep, I've been needing to get that off my chest since I got back...that first flight...crying-it-out-baby...oh dear lord....it was funny when the guy yelled out though..)
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31 Jul 2011, 06:39
Tiger.10.Baby
Post Count: 88
LOL, I would've been that person who screamed. Crying it out in your own home is one thing BUT to let them just cry and cry in a airplane is unacceptable. No one wants to hear your child scream. I get sometimes that you can't always soothe them, but at least try. Ugh, I hate parents like that.
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28 Jul 2011, 16:26
Madeline Rain
Post Count: 151
As a childfree person, I could not be happier that this ban on screaming children is becoming accepted in mainstream society. If you have ever had your $300 dinner ruined by a brat running under your table and throwing very expensive silverware while yelling “weeeee!” you will understand, whether or not you are a parent yourself. Sure, you can scream AGEISM all you want, and compare discriminating against children to apartheid; but in reality, the reason that banning children wasn’t necessary in the past is because maybe, parents were doing their job as, you know, parents!

Yeah, that’s right. I’m calling you parents to the table. Whenever I hear a loud, screaming brat, I do not blame the child. I blame the parent. After all, babies cry, toddlers have tantrums and children of all ages have short attention spans, so it’s up to the parent to do their job and remove their precious miracle from the table as to not disturb other diners. If you have a child, there are a wide array of options available to you, including, but not limited to, Chuck-E-Cheese and McDonald’s.

One thing I have to laugh at when sharing my opinion of children in nice restaurants is, the parents who scream “ZOMG so how is my child going to learn proper table manners?” I’m going to let you in a little secret: You can practice table manners at home! I know that my parents insisted that I eat with proper table manners at all time, whether or not we had guests at home. We even learned how to properly use chopsticks at very own dining table! When it was time to introduce us to fine dining (looking back on it, it wasn’t that fancy, but it was outside our norm) it was under the condition that we behave like human beings, following proper table etiquette and keeping our voices to a reasonable volume. I remember my excitement as a 7 year old being able to dine with the adults, and the pride that came with knowing that I had passed that test! It’s called living in society, people. Not that hard if you set your mind to it.

So yeah, the reason for this so-called “movement” has very little to do with empty nesters, or evil child-hating folks waving a wad of cash at establishments. I don’t know about you guys, but I only notice misbehaved children. If a child is behaving properly, I don’t notice it. Don’t be angry at the restaurant owner/manager, either. It’s not their responsibility to parent your children when they’re running amok. When an establishment receives constant complains from patrons and they all address the same issue, something needs to be done.

Finally, this is nothing to get upset about. Even parents need a night away from their children every once in a while. So when you feel like going to a nice, sit down establishment, and little Jaydynn or Bratleigh’s behavior isn’t up to par, hire a sitter and enjoy your night out! The rest of the world will applaud your decision and command your good sense as a parent.
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28 Jul 2011, 18:00
Party of Five
Post Count: 3
This article had me chuckling for so many reasons.

First, I got chastised last night for not wanting to take my kids somewhere. Ummmm...I know what taking two 2 year olds to a baseball game would be like. No thanks.

Second, it's ok to do some things without your kids. They need time away from you as much as you need time away from them. I'm blessed to work part time so I can spend more time with my kids, but when they are at daycare, I tend to take care of extra errands. But I do believe it's important to take them once in a while so they learn to be patient and well behaved.

Third. there is nothing wrong with having kid-free zones. If you're mad about it, don't go to those places. As much as you think your brats (and yes, my kids are plenty bratty, so I feel ok saying that) have a RIGHT to be in these places, other people have a right to have quiet enjoyment of these places. Like Laura said, there are places to go where kids can act like kids.

And it does fall on the parents. Part of the trouble is that parents are not allowed to discipline like they once were. I'm not saying everyone should beat their kids into submission, but a spank now and then won't kill them. I remember going out as kids and all my dad had to do was threaten to take my little brother to the bathroom for a spanking, and that was all it took. You can barely say the word in public without getting evil looks or wonder if the authorities are waiting outside. Kids are taught (at school, on tv) that they can call the cops on their parents for disciplining. RIDICULOUS! Getting off subject here.

Anyway, manners, good behavior, and sitting during a meal, shopping, etc are all things that can be and should be learned at home. It's so easy to just let the kids run free when you're tired from working all day. But it's not fair to the child or to the rest of the world when you let that happen on a regular basis. Kids are so defiant and have this sense of entitlement because parents are too tired, distracted, or even too lazy to deal with it properly. I think many just count the days until the kids are out of the house. I watch my husband let things slide with the kids far too often! I end up being the mean one, when really, I just expect that they help out around the house and use their manners. Consistency and following through are the keys here.

So when we go out, which we do way too much, and the kids act up, they get a warning to start. Then a trip to the bathroom for a talk--or more if necessary, usually the time away from the table is enough. And yes, we have left a restaurant or store because of embarrassing behavior. And just last weekend, we actually pulled over the car because I threatened to do so. The kids were shocked and they've been angels in the car ever since.

My kids are 2, 2, and 5, if that makes any difference in your hate mail!
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28 Jul 2011, 19:03
Avonlea@ITW
Post Count: 53
I agree, Unauthorized, it's not fair to the rest of us. I do wish they'd ban children of incompetent parents, though. (Although how would you word that on a sign?) "No brats allowed!" Hmmm. Maybe not.

You hit the nail on the head, Party of Five, when you wrote: "Part of the trouble is that parents are not allowed to discipline like they once were." You're so right. I once worked at a daycare center where we weren't allowed to use the word 'no' because it may harm their delicate self-esteem. Some parents have bought into that idea of self-esteem so much that they've just fallen under the power of their little dictators. What ever happened to, rather than esteeming your self, esteeming others?
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28 Jul 2011, 20:21
Jessica
Post Count: 283
I can see in some instances that this would be a good thing. But overall I don't think it's a very good idea.

This ruins everything for well-behaved children. I think things could be implemented much differently. Some sort of strike system maybe? I think the biggest problem with screaming kids that I notice, are the parents who just stand there, or just keep eating while their kids scream. I think it's one thing to not give into the screaming in a grocery store or a clothing store or something (where you expect it to be a little louder), but not in a restaurant or a movie theater. After being asked to pipe down the first time, parents with obnoxious kids should be asked to leave. I would completely understand if my child were screaming and I were asked to leave.

Although, I do agree with the under-6 ban at movies.... there's been several times I've gone to movies where people bring their few-month-old, and the baby is crying nonstop. The mom will take them out of the theater, come back and as soon as they sit down the kid screams again. Rinse, repeat. That to me is just inconsiderate. I personally would not take a newborn to a movie, at all. I think they're too young to understand the movie anyways, so there really isn't any point.
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28 Jul 2011, 21:42
Emily the Strange
Post Count: 195
As someone who haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaates kids, I love how many businesses are taking an "adult only" stance. Kids can be just awful, and I just don't want to be forced to try to eat dinner, or take a plane trip and listen to your child scream and bitch.
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28 Jul 2011, 21:59
.Amber.
Post Count: 260
I think the places that have this "no kids" ban going - should only have certain TIMES there are no kids.

Like maybe the prime dinner date time, for restaurants.

The red-eyes and late night flights for kids (since damn it, they should be sleeping to prevent crankiness, anyway!) Etc...

Not fair to make an entire airline, or an entire restaurant kid-free.
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28 Jul 2011, 22:04
Emily the Strange
Post Count: 195
@ Amber: Nah, not really true. It's totally fair. The minority of businesses/airlines are enacting these rules. That means there are plenty of other options for people who have children to keep those of us who have decided to live child-free to our peace.

But, then again, no one said business was fair. ^_^
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