Ok, I'm going to try and post this with the best of intentions. I know my title is going to get some attention, naturally my intention, but this topic came up the other day and I guess I want to know if anyone thinks similarly to me. My opinions will be at the bottom of the post.

Basically what came up in the news the other day is this (and I will post links to stories in regard to the issue). Some people believe that Childcare centres should not be allowed to have "naughty corners" or "time outs". They also say that kids shouldn't be hit, smacked or pretty much any form of corporal punishment, but I thought that was a given in todays day and age. Anyway. The view is that by putting a child in time out (or naughty corner) you are subjecting the child to unnecessary humilation and it's pretty much unwarranted. One morning show reporter got fired up and said she would be livid if her child were removed from the group and was subjected to the humilation of her child being put in time out and instead she would prefer her child to be pulled aside and "reasoned" with (basically, told what he/she was doing was wrong and what he/she should be doing/behaving instead).

The other issue is the issue of easter. Much like the issue of christmas really - that debate comes up every year! Now this is the good ol' debate of whether christmas in schools (or this case easter) should be forbidden based on the grounds that it's a Christian based holiday and it's not politically correct in this day in age. Please keep in mind, this is coming from Australia, so I mean we do have religions but I don't think our Christian groups get as fired up as America, I could be wrong though. Anyway, they want to ban easter or they are trying to debate whether it should be held in public schools.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/no-place-for-naughty-spot/story-fn56aaiq-1226033584300
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/ban-on-naughty-corner-easter-egg-hunts/story-fn7x8me2-1226033109685

My opinions
Now here could potentially get messy due to my conflicting views. Let me just say, I'm teach kids, so I have an opinion on one end of the scale, but I'm also doing a subject which sort of questions those views, so I also have an opinion on the other end of the scale.

Punishment: For me personally, I've always been taught that if one of my kids are misbehaving, I have to talk to them first, warn them, reason with them etc etc - basically they get three strikes and after that, they have to sit out for barely a minute, and then I have to try and reason with them again and if they agree, I can let them rejoin. There is, I guess, some humiliation in that, because I do sort of remove them from the group - but this is the most effective way. Especially because I only deal with groups of kids for 30 minutes at a time, I can't really spend 10 minutes reasoning with a child while the other go neglected. I think it's fair enough to reason with a child, talk it through and discuss the problem (this is what I've learnt from my uni class) but I wouldn't say remove the naughty corner completely. Like I said, it can be effective! I'd never have a child removed out of the room or out of sight, but reasoning with a child isn't ALWAYS easy and sometimes they need time to just CALM DOWN. And on that note...I know its frustrating for some parents, especially the parents of the kids I work with - if one child is mucking up and misbehaving - the other children aren't getting the attention and lesson that they deserve - so for their parents it's like "Why am I sending my child to be in a class with this badly behaved child" so it's hard to keep EVERYONE happy.

Easter Eggs/Christmas - I went to a public school & I come from a Jewish family. I took part in christmas shows and easter egg hunts and the whole nine-yards. I actually get a little upset over the prospect of schools cancelling these events because I remember how much I LOVED them. I had SO MUCH fun at Easter and Christmas and I enjoyed every minute of it. I think in order to be PC in todays world, perhaps they don't need to cancel these events, but remove the religious attachment. I know some religious folk won't be happy about that, but I'm not saying get rid of the religious history completely, maybe leave the religious teachings to the parents/church/etc and enjoy the other aspects at school? Thats what happened for me! We had christmas at school, but it wasn't about Jesus or anything - all I can remember is making decorations and a s**t load of glitter and glue, so I'm not sure what it was about at that stage. And as for Easter, we had an easter had parade (a lot of melted easter eggs very carefully glued onto hats) but there was no mention of Jesus.

I'm going to end this here, I think its gone on long enough. Basically though: Punishment - No corporal punishment but don't ban naughty corners completely and Easter - All for it, same with christmas, just within moderation?

Ok people, what are your views? Be respectful :)

As far as time outs and naughty corners.. Hmm. I think it works better to reason with them and explore their feelings for why they're behaving that way. My nephew is 3, turning 4 in July - and he is capable of this. Not on an adult level but.. "Why did you kick her?" "She made me angry" - Ooooh, okay. You're feeling angry. What made you feel angry? Etc. Etc. I think it's better to really figure out what's going on. I know some parents do that, but a lot of parents will just shove them in a corner and leave them to deal with their feelings on their own. That being said, my nephew DID get put into time out today - twice. This morning was simply because I asked him to do something and the whining started, so I had him sit down for about 2 minutes to see if he would calm down. He didn't, so he took a nap. The second time, he kept running around my house - which is a big no no.. my 5 month old puppy was chasing him, and after the 2nd time of telling him to stop running, I had him sit down on our couch and chill.

As far as Holidays in schools - I don't see a reason why not to do SOMETHING. I think most religions celebrate some sort of Easter related holiday and most celebrate some sort of Winter holiday also. No harm. IMO.

To be honest - I am contemplating keeping my daughter at home this upcoming year and home schooling. I'm really wanting to look into it.. because I don't agree with how schools do things.

I have a three year old and believe me, reasoning with him is not always an option.

We have a 'naughty chair', when talking to him fails he has to sit in the naughty chair and not move until he is told he is allowed to. The average three year old doesnt like being restricted and he HATES it-brings about an almost instant positive response.

He also gets little smacks but this is reserved for when he is out of control and doing something that is potentially dangerous. I would rather tap the back of his legs than have a dead child. I dont believe a light smack to be harmful at all and if Gaius plays up when he goes to kindy I would expect him to face some kind of consequence- and a naughty corner is not that bad.

I just think that by taking away consequences we are potentially raising generations who have no idea of how to be responsible for their own actions. And as I have seen through my job, things like Youth Justice Conferencing or behavioural counselling do not often ensure kids wont repeat offend. There HAS to be consequences for actions - we just have to find the right ones.

I feel very bad for my child who is being forced to grow up a world where parents are unable (unwilling?) to discipline their children in any way. No spanking, no time outs, no naughty corners. For crying out loud, we are the parents. Children must be taught how to behave and act properly and you can't REASON with a toddler, they are not able to understand yet. When I've tried to reason with my child, he looks through me and goes "huh?" when I'm done. He doesn't know what I'm talking about and he's very smart! I grew up being spanked, by not only my parents but by teachers (WITH my parents 100% support!). It has not harmed me or my self esteem. The entire year of third grade, my desk was at the chalkboard because I was constantly talking to my classmates. Humiliating? I don't remember it being humiliating and I certainly don't have any self-esteem issues about it either.

We are raising a society of people who will NOT know how to behave or handle themselves when they get into the real world! I'm sick and tired of hearing about how kids can't be excluded from being on a sports team or in a show. The hell they can't!!! If they suck, I don't want them on the team. Life is full of disappointments. Fucking get used to it people! lol

Anyway, regarding Christmas/Easter...both holidays are so commercialized right now why does it really matter? Public schools have Easter egg hunts or Christmas parties. I guarantee the main focus is the easter bunny and santa claus, nothing else.

The subject I'm doing at uni...it's trying to make us think of children as individuals (amongst other things) but to sort of think of them as mini-human beings - yep i'm doing wonderful at explaining this - basically instead of thinking about children as people who need to be taught, they need to be thought of us fully functional citizens of the world capable of having valid thoughts and opinions which can shape the world around them. Yep, there's theorists and people who have actually studied this concept. It's messing with my head.

I know I had a conflict of opinion last week because we had to give out awards to our classes and it was very difficult to give one child an award and not another. I had to be discreet about it instead of actually making it this really good thing, just because you feel bad for the kids which don't get an award. AT the same time, I hate that! I think its "character building" if one kid is awarded for doing something really good and gives the other child reason to strive to do better. I mean it's teaching them life skills in a way. You don't get a promotion just from showing up to work and doing jack all...you get a promotion at work for showing up and doing well etc. As for sports competitions - same deal, sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. You're more likely to win and get an award if you strive to achieve that goal, you shouldn't get an award just because the other kids get an award.

I don't know how I'd feel if I had a child that was hit by a teacher. As an teacher - I'd never hit any of the children in my class, I just wouldn't be comfortable with that. As a parent, again, conflicted views, probably because I'm not a parent. I was smacked growing up, I don't think there was anything wrong with it - well, ok, my parents may have done it in excess (my dad) and probably didn't use other methods BEFORE getting to the smacking stage, I have terrible memories of just being smacked in situations that could have been handled differently, so I think there's a fine line between using it as a punishment and just being abusive. I was going to say something else...damnit what was it. Oh thats it. I think also - when it comes to doing something dangerous, this sort of goes with the whole "naughty corner" idea....but you've got to give the child reason not to do it again, especially if the act is going to hurt them or someone else. I mean time out - if it does humiliate a child...then that will teach them that they don't want to do whatever it was they did - because it will end up in their humiliation. if a child does something dangerous, the prospect of a smack would probably deter them from doing it again. But then back to what I said, my dad was a bit trigger happy, so I don't know if it really taught me much other than he's a jerk.

I don't have kids, but some of my friends do, and I've seen them slap the child's hand when they're in a frenzy of crying/sobbing to break the child's attention from crying. It's a way of shocking the kid out of a harmful/destructive behavior without harming them to get their attention. I don't think kids should go fetch a switch, but if the tantrum is so wild the child is thrashing about, you've got to break that behavior and if it means a thwap to the butt or the hand, I don't see the problem in it.

@Emily, I don't understand that logic, but everyone parents differently. If my child is throwing a fit, or sobbing uncontrollably I allow her to cry. I usually send her to her room if we are at home, and I tell her when she can talk about how she is feeling, she can come out. It takes about 5 minutes for her to come out and let me know why she is angry or upset.

Personally, I think the 'naughty corner' is a ridiculous idea, although I think time out is a positive thing. But to assign a corner - or a step - as 'naughty' just seems ridiculous to me. Sending the child to their room (in a home environment) or some kind of time out room, is a good way to give them chance to calm down in a neutral place, but to put them in a 'naughty corner' or on a 'naughty step' is just inflammatory. And illogical, in terms of its name - to have a 'naughty corner' is suggesting the corner itself is naughty! I'm sure if I'd been given a naughty corner as a child, I'd have been smacking the corner's bottom and telling it that it was a very naughty corner! ;D

As for smacks, they can be done in a positive or negative way. I have a friend who says that when she was a kid she much preferred a quick smack to a long talking to - it was quick and got the message across and didn't belabour the point!

ryc: what exactly is the difference between a time out room and a naughty corner? it seems like you're nit-picking on a semantic issue. the corner isn't naughty and kids know that! you could call it the time-out corner or the quiet corner, and it would still mean the same thing--a form of punishment for misbehaving.

*sorry, that is ryc @ bubblegum bimberly

Actually I think this "ban" is more relating to the seclusion or isolation of children who are misbehaving. So it just means any removal of the child from a group of children. Corner, another room, a mat, a step - if it physically places the child away from the group as a form of punishment - its a no-no.

Time out is what it says it is - time out. It's not 'punishment' - it's giving the child some time and space to calm down. There is no labelling. Naughty corner is drawing attention to the child as naughty - as a humiliation thing. That's more likely to be inflammatory than to really let the child calm down. Wording makes a huge difference. Kids pay attention to wording. It draws attention to the purpose of what the child is being told to do. A purpose to have chance to calm down and think clearly is a positive purpose for the child and the adult - it will show the child they are valued and teach them a practical lesson on self-control and boundaries. A purpose to humiliate the child is pointless.

And there will always be kids who take language literally and for whom 'naughty corner' means a corner that is naughty. Not all kids, but there will be some. So in the interests of making language accessible to all kids, I'd say the wording needs to be rethought on a variety of levels.

My son loves his roo, :P its full of cool stuff!!

1st you can't paddle a child for being bad. Now they don't want you to have a time out spot? Give me a freakin' break. We coddle children way too much now a days. Parent's are too afraid that if they discipline a child for being an obnoxious brat in public that they're going to be emotionally scarred for the rest of their lives. NEWSFLASH, I made it just fine, my parents made it just fine, their parents made it just fine, etc. etc. I am not emotionally scarred because I was acting like a snot at school and the teacher told me to sit inside while the rest of the kids got to play for recess. That's just the way it was.

If we keep going and try to 'reason' with kids instead of giving them a swift open palm slap on the behind, they're never going to be prepared for the real world. They're going to freak out when they don't get a promotion because all throughout school teachers HAD to give EVERYONE an award as to not discriminate... or because the Drama teacher HAD to include everyone in the play, even though Johnny can't act his way out of a wet paper bag.

When I didn't get a 'medal' during field day I didn't go home and cry because other people got awards. I freakin' realized that I didn't work hard enough to get the award (and that I fail at physical education stuff). It didn't emotionally scar me because I didn't get to stand on the podium like other kids did.

As far as Christmas and Easter and all that crap goes... It's so commercialized that it shouldn't matter anymore. Christmas and Easter has less to do (in the minds of children) with Jesus and more to do with candy filled eggs, easter bunnies, presents and making Santa gorge himself on sugar cookies. Having an Easter Egg Hunt shouldn't be a big deal...unless the kids are getting Easter Baskets full of Scripture and Bibles.

Meesa FTW ;D I so agree!

I am sensing that this thread will soon veer off topic and become a heated debate about appropriate ways of disciplining a child. For the record my feelings on the issue pretty much come in line with the course that Kez is doing above, children are little human beings with real thoughts and opinions and feelings... I have proof of this, my 3 1/2 year old can explain to me why he does something, what he thinks about something, how he feels about something. I talk to him and communicate with him all the time, I encourage him to talk to me about things. Sometimes I have far more interesting conversations with my 3 year old than I do with most adults. But thats beside the point. In schools, things need to be different. You can't ask a teacher with a class of 30 or so pupils to invest the same ammount of time in your child as you can. Its just not viable. A teacher is there to teach. A teacher has to make sure that all children benefit from their teaching... if one child is being disruptive and isn't listening to reason, then after a certain ammount of time, that child needs to be removed from the rest of the class so the teacher can do what they're there to do - teach. Ideally, that child would then be passed onto a teaching assistant or another adult in the classroom. School is also supposed to teach our children about the real world. Wrapping them in cotton wool at school is not going to do a child any favours later in life. Life is full of disappointments. Life is full of situations in which you don't always come out smelling of roses. School is the perfect place for a child to learn these valuble life lessons that they might not necessarily experience outside of school. Like must mums I'd love to wrap my boys in cotton wool and protect them from the big bad world for as long as possible... but that isn't going to help them in the long run. Basically, I disagree with the naughty corner/time out being removed from schools.

As for Easter.. I went to Catholic schools and celebrated all the Christian holidays so I can't say much for state schools. It is my impression that in todays more multicultural society, state schools religious education should cover multiple religions. Therefore it seems only right that as well as having fun activities for Easter and Christmas, they should also engage in some sort of activity on Hannukah or Eid.. just makes sense. Religion in theory is a good thing to teach our children. It opens their eyes to multiple cultures, reduces intolerance and helps to emphasise the importance of good morals and kindness and all that other good stuff that religions profess. I'm not a religious person but I certainly learnt a lot about how to treat others from going to Catholic schools.

@Ennui: Yes I did have a slight hesitation about that when I posted the forum thread...but obviously being in a subject based on children and childhood, I thought it would be beneficial for me (at least) to see what the opinions would be. I kind of knew that eventually it MAY have the potential to get messy (Yay forum drama *sarcasm*) but I took that risk. Haha. Ah well. But so far so good I think?

Scarily enough...and this goes out to the forum it was brought up in my class today. The tutor we had works in early childhood - and basically everything he was suggesting was about to irritate me. He advocated the "no timeout, no naughty corner, no punishment aspect" and it basically got to the point where I wanted to ask him what the hell he would do in the instance where a child was severely misbehaving. It almost sounded like he would reward the child with millions of dollars.

Anyway, he is a bit off with the fairies, i won't mention what he did at the beginning of class last week...thats a whole other conversation right there. BUT he did mention something fairly important and people might want to keep this in mind if they reply to this thread Apparently up until recently...there were TWO COUNTRIES that hadn't signed the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (or CRC)...basically this convention/treaty has a detailed list of how children should be treated, their care so on an so forth. I did have to do a bit of research before posting this, just to make sure some of my facts were right. As I said, up until recently TWO countries hadn't signed it. They have now but are YET TO ENFORCE IT. One of those countries being Somalia...and the other apparently didn't sign it (now this is what I was told) the other country didn't sign it based on conflicting religious/christian morals and the other reason being they don't view children as individuals - but more property. Which is fair enough...viewing children as property of their parents isn't only an historical belief, but A LOT of people view this. The other country is of course - The USA. Now i'm not saying that to oust you all. I'm just saying that BECAUSE that may be the basis of conflicting views. There may be a conflict because while Australia, The UK etc etc signed and implemented the treaty quite a while ago, The USA have only just signed it and have yet to establish it under their terms.

I think I just wanted to mention that in the instance that a conflict arises...just be aware that there is actually laws/treaties/conventions which are in place/aren't in place which results in some of the conflicting beliefs.

Why don't we go the extra mile and ban all punishments, ever.

You know, like get rid of prisons and all.

I don't have children but I do work in a school and I see how well "no discipline" is working...*insert sarcastic eyeroll and giggle here*

Sometimes reasoning, especially with very young children, is like trying to reason with a pet. I think that it is ridiculous for parents to think that teachers or child care workers are "humiliating" their children by putting them in time out. I am in a high school and these kids should know by now what type of behavior is acceptable and what is not. This is something they should be teaching at home. These days parents want us to raise their children but when they misbehave and break school rules & policies the parents are up at arms on the Administrators when their kids come home with 3 day suspensions or detentions. Children need rules and consequences. It is how they learn correct behavior. I'm sick of parents who coddle their kids. The kids are going to have a hard life as adults later on.

I've found out it's pretty much how the kids were raised and taught in school. I worked in a daycare in high school and punishment for misbehaving was to lay your head down on the table and not participating in the activity that was going on. This worked with ALL the kids. If that was threatened the kids behaved or did their punishment and went on with the activity. But than when was 19 I worked in a daycare and these kids had NO punishments at all and they ran out of control. The teachers tried the naughty spot technique and it did nothing, but they also didn't follow through. I was told in my high school daycare that you limit contact with the kids. No grabbing arms or pulling away, etc. But in the daycare I worked at there was teacher pulling kids by the arms left and right and just being overall physical.

I think if methods like the naughty spot are established early on, they work. It worked on my niece who was 3 and would cry over not getting her way. I would put her on our bed or in a chair in our bedroom and leave the door cracked and tell her to come out when she could act like a big girl. It took 5 minutes for her to come out and apologize. And this is a girl who was a HUGE brat lol. I think really all punishments depend on how the kids were raised/taught. I told my husband when we have kids I want to start out with the naughty spot as soon as they're old enough to act up, but I won't hesitate to spank my kids if they're REALLY acting up. I don't think spanking used in the right way will damage a child for life.

Omg, some people are morons. Kids need some punishment so they can learn what is the wrong way to act. Children who cont get disciplined become little bratty snore who thinks they can get anything they want. A time out or corner time out isn't bad.

As for Easter and Christmas, I'm no way religious but I have no issue with it. I think doing activities for small children is a fun thing. Why do people need to be so damn sensitive? Its not like public schools are teaching the bible.

The only problem is - well as of today I realised there's some truth to it. Some children adapt to being the "naughty child" if your constantly telling the child he/she is naught, constantly putting them in time-out or naughty corner, the child accepts that's who he/she is and will continue to act out.

We happened to discuss where it all becomes a bit murky and shades of grey start to appear. I didn't realise when I posted this forum that there's a whole can of worms here. I mean i knew there were different opinions and so forth...but then there's the "results" of those opinions. Like If you remove a child - theres pro's and con's and then those pro's and con's have pro's and cons AND THEN if you DON'T remove the child...more pro's and con's which have even more pro's and con's.

It's clearly one giant headache :)

Yes, exactly - label a kid as naughty, and that will become the kid's identity, and the kid will continue to be naughty. Use neutral language, like 'time out', and it will no longer be an identity thing, but about controlling behaviour.

It really depends on how you portray the time out space though. If the kid is being sent there for every little misdemeanour, that's daft. It should be more a place for a child who needs to calm down. It can work really well with autistic children who have meltdowns and need a place to calm down, where they are not harming other kids. And really, this is what happens at a lesser level with all little kids - they get angry and lose control of themselves, because they haven't yet learnt adult self-control mechanisms. So a safe place to calm down is what they need. Then, once they're calm, and in a space where they can pay attention, deal with the behaviour.

In the end of it all, it's the parents who make kids behaviors. It's not the schools responsibility to raise kids. They teach and help with some life skills. The parents are the ones who have more to do how a child acts. If they raise their kids to act like little shits then they are going to act like that. The schools method is time outs and sometimes it's necessay.

I know a couple who has two daughters who are a perfect example.

One is 7 and the other is 5. Both have no respect and have no discipline. At school, both fights, argue with other kids, and completely back talk to the teachers. The school has called their parents several times on their behaviors but they don't do anything! In their mind (mostly the mother) her daughters are angels. The youngest has been expelled from kindergarten. She's at a new school and still acts the same. A school can only do so much. They've talked to the parents many times but these people don't do anything. This is what I mean by at the end of it all, parents are responsible for childrens behaviors. By not punishing their daughters they're letting them think its okay to act this way. Her own family and in-laws think the girls are rude and disrespectful. They won't even baby sit. In fact, they have a hard time finding anyone to watch their daughters.

The husband has three other children from another mother. One boy who is 22 and two twin girls who are 19. They have no behavioral problems! Their mother taught them respect and discipline growing up and they grew up to be respectful people. None of them ever been expelled from school either.

The way each parent raised their kids made them into what they are now. You have the "my daughters are angels but fight other kids" mom who have brats and the one who didn't let them get away being bratty and disrespectful.