How can I respond to that without exploding? There is too much to say! Do I attack the misuse of religion? Sure.
God is Love. Love cannot hate. Therefore, God cannot hate gays.
That was quick. Next.
Using extremists that took that cross or ripped pages out of the Bible to promote this homophobia is just like me using people like the Christian who killed that abortionist to promote atheism. You cannot generalize like that.
Homosexuality is not a choice. You cannot be an "ex-homosexual". You don't choose to be heterosexual. You don't choose to be bisexual or asexual either. Whether or not there is actually a gene, I don't know. I have no clue about the science behind it. I just know it isn't a choice from experience.
And this video:
Denying someone a right others have because of the way they were born or because of something they cannot change is now unconstitutional. We went through this already with women and African Americans. That's why civil unions WON'T WORK. Equal rights but separate names? Sounds like segregation to me. (Quickly I want to say that I am merely drawing a parallel on rights that are deserved. I am not saying gays are suffering more than blacks did. I don't want to see a comment about that.)
The five-year-old kid thing is both understandable and sad. It is good to know about and be accepting of others. Young children, however, might not be ready to handle this for one reason only: their parents can't. Only once we progress as a society to the point where we can accept those for who they are can we teach children about it. Parents in this day and age are going to confuse their children merely because they are biased towards anti-gay actions. When children are presented with this material in school, parents will refute it at home, making the young child question everything taught at school because, to them, parents are the know-all be-all of information. "What else is the school teaching me wrong? Mathematics? Science?" the child might think. So, first all adults must reach this acceptance point. Until then, students can't really be taught this in school until they are at an age where they know parents can be wrong too.
Let me first point out one thing: This book doesn't seem to go into sex or anything immoral for a young child to know about. It seems to treat teaching kids about gay couples the same as teaching them how Mommy and Daddy love each other. I feel like I have to state this because we I say "homosexual couple" you might immediately think about sex, unlike when I say "straight couple" you think about the whole process from close friends to married.
The fact that the husband was sent to jail for refusing to leave seems excessive. I think the procedure there should have been to talk it out, and, if he is still stubborn, escort him off of the premises. Maybe there is more to the story?
Either way, if they disagree--home-school the kids.
If you refuse to answer a question on the Bar exam, you fail. Dumbshit. Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage. If you disagree with a law and can't remain unbiased in those cases, you are not fit to be a judge. And I think refusing to answer a question on the Bar exam constitutes as being unable to remain unbiased.
In case you haven't noticed, it is a bit hard for gay people to have kids of their own, so adoption is the only route. I was trying not to use this word, but the people who shut down an adoption sector of Catholic Charities are downright bigots for refusing to let gay people adopt children.
This is from adopting.org, a website dedicated to adoption from all directions--looking for kids, kid looking for biological parents, biological parents looking for info on kids, foster parents, etc.:
"During the court finalization hearing, the judge reviews information about the child, the biological parent(s), and the adopting parent(s). This information can include:
the homestudy and/or other evaluation of the adopting parent(s) and their suitability for the child,
Adopting parents, heterosexual or homosexual, must be deemed fit parents by a court. If a couple is deemed fit, then they should be able to adopt!
This video wasn't really about the consequences of gay marriage. In fact, some "problems" (like rallies) would be ended with the nationwide legalization of gay marriage. This video was mostly just anti-gay stuff.
I can't wait until my children (adopted, bitch!) are learning about all this stuff in history class.
Those are actually from different Testaments, (condemnation of homosexuality happens in the New Testament, the whole "unclean" stuff in the Old), and the general Christian way to refute such claims is based on the idea that Jesus changed the rules.
That first video terrifies me on so many levels... I knew there'd be stuff out there like that, but I think thats the first time I've seen it. It's just Hitler and his propoganda all over again because it is spouting such absolute nonsense! And those parents are scary. Funny how he's very detailed about the situation until it comes to the point of mentioning exactly what it was he did to get arrested... I think there was some handy editing done there.
I live in Vermont, which just recently passed a gay marriage bill. Anyway, I heard this ridiculous commercial on the radio before the vote came up, about how it was forcing kids to accept homosexuality by TEACHING IT IN SCHOOLS!!! *the horror!!* It was just silly.
I mean... we teach heterosexuality in schools almost subconsciously - reading Romeo & Juliet in english class - HETEROSEXUAL LOVE. I can't think of any other examples...
The arguments against homosexuality & gay marriage just seem SO RIDICULOUS that I can't believe that people are still on the other side.
I wrote a paper about homosexuality, basically saying that it WAS biological/genetic, and a lot of the stuff in the second video was information I found over and over in my research.
Yeah, sorry for such a long random comment on an entry you wrote a while ago, but, yeah.
Argh and I just watched about half of the first video and couldn't watch anymore... to the parents who wanted to be 'notified' about the book - do they also choose to wait until the 'right time' to discuss interracial marriages? Divorce? ERG. Sorry to, like, spam this entry.
thank you thank you thank you!!!! I love this entry. I am all for gay marriage, and am almost constantly butting heads with my parents (catholics) and some of my friends. They give me the same arguments, and i always am able to refute them. There was a priest at my church who bashed gay marriage, and if i had a car, i would have just gotten up and left...i hate going to the church anymore. *Sigh* anyways, i'm rambling lol. love the entry, thank you for posting this information!
Well, sin is sin. Whether it is being gay, or lusting after someone of another sex. It's all the same in God's eyes. Also, I believe that it's not the fact that someone is born with feelings for someone of the same sex, it's how you choose to act on those feelings.
Oh, and one more thing, it's not just fundie christians who believe that homosexuality is wrong, there are a lot of people who do, just sayin...
So, why not find another church that you can go to that isn't so legalistic? There are plenty of churches out there that don't behave like the ones that you speak of, that condemn gay people straight to hell. Not being funny, just sayin.
So, thinking along your lines, if you're straight and you fall in love and want to marry someone, you shouldn't because it's wrong (See how I just substituted straight for gay, there?). The way you stated this, to be fair to everyone, no one would ever mate or love or take care of one another or experience the miracle that is to be loved by and to love another human being. I guess it's a good way to recruit monks. =/
Why would God give one in ten people this extra burden to carry? If he knew homosexuals would never be able to act upon their feelings, never be able to be in a loving relationship which included the pleasure of making love, never be free from temptation and constantly living in guilt for those feelings.... isn't God meant to be fair? Weren't we all meant to be made equal in his eyes?
I'm at work - and cannot see the videos. They won't work.
However, I'm sure whatever the woman said is probably a little extreme. Or it might be. I'm not sure I haven't seen it.
My opinion? I love Jesus. He loves you. However, he hates your sin. Jesus is pure and he does not reside where sin is. Therefore, when a person is gay they are chosing to seperate themselves from Christ and his love.
So because I am meant to be an imitator of Christ I choose the same choice. I love people. However, I do not love it when someone is gay.
And I disagree. You do choose whether you are gay or not. If you have feelings for someone of the same sex, than my advice? You need to get counseling and learn how to deal with those feelings and how to rid yourself of them. Because that is not what God intended for us. An alcoholic chooses to drink, just as a gay or lesbian chooses to be with a man/woman.
I'll agree that a gay man chooses to be with a man, but only so far as a straight man chooses to be with a woman. I don't think anyone choose who they find attractive (either physically or mentally). With the "choice" logic, there shouldn't be any gay people. Take gay Christians:
"Oh, well, being straight is nice and all, but today I really feel like being discriminated against based on who I love, so now I'm gay. This is fun! Now Jesus hates my sin since I've chosen to separate myself from him! Ah cool, now my parents want to disown me too. Thank goodness I can't get married or have fully biological children, those are just burdens. But at least now I'm different. "
Who would possibly have that thought process? If you compare alcoholism, at least those drinks do provide some "benefits" such as an escape from real life, etc.
I just flat out do not understand how any heterosexual person can claim that being gay is a choice directly to a gay person.
Carias - those things. The abondment by family, etc. are just consquences of the sin. Not only that, but there are health risks that also become consquences. Do you think an alcoholic chooses to die from liver disease or thinks about those consquences when they begin drinking in excess? Of course not!
Do I agree with disowning family members? NO. What I agree with is taking a stand against the sin. If my daughter ever where to come to me and tell me she were a lesbian I would sit down with her, tell her my opinion and go on. I would not allow her "girlfriend" ever in our home, but she would be welcome. Because by allowing that behavior it's like saying, "It's OK! Be gay!" When that's not what God intended for anyone. (To be gay that is)
Oh and everyone needs to knock it off with this whole "Why would God give us this gay gene than?"
God didn't give you that. There is another being umm called Satan. He can tempt just as many people and if you choose to go his route, well than that's your choice.
well how would you feel if people who believe it isn't a choice told you to knock it off with your beliefs?
no one would choose to be persecuted, if they were given that choice. if it was just that easy to say "i won't be gay, because it's the easier choice" then there'd be no gays.
how is it that christians can condemn being gay, but then go on to ignore other ridiculous things that all.is.vanity mentioned? say if your husband died before giving him an heir, would you sleep with his brothers to produce one? do you think adulterers should be stoned to death?
people that pick and choose what to believe based on their own fear of something they can't understand are sad.
if believing that an unseen being in the sky and a big monster in the ground gives you comfort and helps you live your life, then that's fine, but don't try to say anyone elses beliefs are any less valid than your own.
There is, interestingly enough, research that shows that the brains of homosexual individuals are anatomically different to their heterosexual counterparts. This, to me, says that there is at least some unchangeable, genetic, component to homosexuality. One that does not involve 'choice'.
I was able to watch it now. I just pulled it up directly from youtube. I have to say, I agree 100% with the video. Especially with the public school. If I choose to have my child in public school I still have the right to what they are learning about when it comes to sex and religion. So you want equal rights as gays? Fine! But stop trying to take our rights as well. You know what I mean?
i was raised and still taught that homosexuality is wrong and that gays shouldn't be married. but now i realize that it's not man's place to judge any other man. we're all sinners, we all have flaws. it's all up to God on judgment day. whether or not homosexuals can get married doesn't affect my faith or my personal lifestyle. i really wish other religious people could see this. (like you said) God is love, always. in heaven there is no sex (at least i think anyway. i've always thought that sex was something worldly and therefor wouldn't be in heaven) so there is no marriage. hate is a waste of time and energy. grats on RC
How can you say that their choice does not affect you? I love the Lord with all of my heart - and when I see others choose a sinful path that is going to lead them to hell, it effects me! I want to just turn them around and say, "Look at what this is going to cost you! It's not worth it!"
Can I ask you to show me the part in the bible where it says that Homosexuality (or rather, homosexual sex) is a sin, without referring to the section in leviticus (considering that modern day christian ignore everything else in that particular book, which condones stoning adulterers to death, speaks of menstruation being dirty, and even says that if a women's husband dies before she gives him a heir, she has to sleep with his brother to produce one.
Also, this entry wasn't actually questioning whether or not Christianity says that homosexuality is a sin or not - it was about same sex marriage. We are not asking to be married in a church, which is a church matter, we are asking for the legal right to marry. Marriage is not a Christian-only privilege. Atheists marry. Shocking, I know. Plus... you are claiming that it's only the sexual activities that are sinful - then the marriage in itself is not.
Not making an argument either way, but you asked for the info:
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
And for the benefit of the readers, I'll post a neat little bit of the article I linked in the entry. You'd do well to at least glance through the section where he talks about each verse "condemning" homosexuality.
Warning: Wall of text!
does Romans 1:26-27 say about God?
For our discussion, this is the most controversial biblical passage of them all. In Romans 1:26-27 the apostle Paul describes non-Jewish women who exchange "natural use for unnatural" and non-Jewish men who
"leave the natural use of women, working shame with each other."
This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that practice. But let's go back 2,000 years and try to understand
Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one
true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors -- including castrating themselves, carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female) --
all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure.
The Bible is clear that sexuality is a gift from God. Our Creator celebrates our passion. But the Bible is also clear that when passion gets control of our lives, we're in deep trouble.
we live for pleasure, when we forget that we are God's children and that God has great dreams for our lives, we may end up serving the false gods of sex and passion, just as they did in Paul's time. In our obsession with pleasure, we may even walk away
from the God who created us -- and in the process we may cause God to abandon all the great dreams God has for our lives.
Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don't think so. Did God
abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No. Read the text again.
In our Soulforce video, There's a Wideness in God's Mercy, the Rev. Dr. Louis B. Smedes, a distinguished Christian author and ethicist, describes exactly how the
Bible says these promiscuous priests and priestesses got into this mess. Once again it has nothing to do with homosexuality:
SMEDES: "The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God, and for this reason were abandoned by
God. And being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity."
SMEDES: "The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for his grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality
as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God?"
SMEDES: "Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not
change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex."
SMEDES: "And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than
heterosexual people do... their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be."
Thank you, Dr. Smedes. (To get a copy of the video featuring Dr. Smedes, There's a Wideness in God's Mercy,
Getting to know a lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender person of faith will help you realize that it is unreasonable (and unjust) to compare our love for each other to the rituals of the priests and priestesses
who pranced around the statues of Aphrodite and Diana. Once again, I feel certain this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it.
You'll also note that Romans 2 begins with "Therefore, [referring to
Romans 1], you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself..." Even after he describes the disturbing practices he has seen, Paul warns us that judging others is God's business, not
Wow, no need to get butt-hurt about it. I was pointing out the Christian argument without actually pushing it. Anyone on here that knows me (and they are numerous) know that I am a scholar, but also strongly libertarian -- I don't give a shit what people do in their lives, so long as it doesn't interfere with my personal and property rights.
I was pointing out the general Christian argument is extended from the New Testament, whereas most only think of the Old Testament argument which is completely fallible. If you'd like to cry more about it, though, feel free.
I wans't crying about anything. It was a genuine question and I appreciated your answer! I think that carias posting Dr Smedes point wasn't actually an attack, as he said it was for the benefit of the readers, he just posted it under your comment because it was related to that extract.
The Catholic Church says that "[Homosexuals] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." Catholics do not hate gays, nor do they think that God hates them. They do not believe that they are going to hell, nor do they believe that they should convert to being straight. They believe that the inclination is something they are born with and they are called to a live of chastity and friendship with others. (This is what I've read in church teachings.) We are all born with struggles and hardships that are meant to unite us closer with Christ and apparently this is what the Church says on the matter of homosexuality. You may think this is a load of crap, but it is CERTAINLY better than the youtube video up there.
Okay, I could only watch the first video and that's it because it really sucks that people can be so cruel and judgemental. First of all, it does NOT AFFECT YOUR LIFE if a homosexual couple marries. Marriage isn't sanctamonious anymore people. Look at the cheaters! So you think they should never be allowed to re-marry because they've made a mockery of marriage? I don't think that diversity bag was bad at all. How hard is it to say, "Some kids have a mom and a dad, some kids have two moms, some kids have two dads, some kids have one dad, and some kids have one mom and that's what makes us all different and special?" Why raise more children who will remain close-minded? I think we should all just be good, accepting people and maybe this world would run a bit more smoothly.
i think the issue isn't how people feel personally, on a moral or religious level, its the fact that the government shouldn't be telling us who people are "allowed" to marry. it is none of the government's business. its no one's business who anyone marries. its really that simple. ♥
In my opinion, god is not real. If there is a god, why the hell should he care who you love? I'm sure he spends his time sitting on a cloud or throne, w/e the hell he does and picks out people he hates. Really, people?
i didn't watch the videos yet. But i must applaud on your entry. i think all the happy homos should come on over to Canada, be wed & merry. Gay marriage has been legal for years here & the sky hasn't fallen nor is "traditional" marriage jeopardized.
Oh? I thought that heterosexual marriages just sort of stopped after any gay marriage rights were passed. I mean, since all of its sanctity would be gone after that, why bother? I can't believe anything like that would ever work!
I love Canada.
I couldn't even watch the first video-I didn't understand what they were saying because of no subtitles but I could understand the context of the video and it definitely didn't make me very happy to know they're spreading this kind of propaganda (that would be nothing new though). I definitely can't wait until my kids learn about this in history class then ask my partner and me what all the big fuss was about.
But thank you sooo much for posting a link to that article about Mel White. That article was awesome. I love it.
So like, I wasn't even going to respond to this, because I was
supposed to be done with religion, but some of the comments made me snap, and I have to comment now.
The issue shouldn't even be about religion in the slightest bit, and it's hypocritical for it to even have anything to do with religion, Christianity
especially. If people in other religions should be able to marry, and the only ones that are vocal about the issue are Christianity and Islam, then I don't see why gays can't marry. So let's grant the fact that they don't have a problem with people from
other religions marrying; the issue is off the table. How about Christians divorcing? Committing adultery? Living with each other out of wedlock? These are just as big of sins as homosexuality.
My biggest problem with modern religion, Christianity
in particular, is that like some people like to pick and choose which rules they want to follow. I just had an issue on Facebook with this chick the other day who was preaching about the love of God, and how homosexuality should be completely banned
because it's a downright sin, but this chick sleeps with more guys than anyone I know. She's a nightclub whore who goes to church on Sundays.
If the general Christian wants to legally ban homosexual marriage, then these people, for the sake
of consistency, should ban divorce and adultery... legally. Well, attempt to, anyway. And there are people who are, but the rest of the Christians who supported Proposition 8 are like, "Oh. NOW these guys are crazy."
Moving along, the banning
of homosexual marriage shouldn't even be a religious issue because religious issues should have absolutely zero to do with legal issues. At all. Even more-so, it shouldn't be left to the people to vote, because it doesn't affect them in the slightest
bit. Not one single bit. The people shouldn't have voted on what kind of relationship a stranger has with another stranger.
When people go on with bullshit about how it's going to spread to the schools and how it's going to become some naturalized
way of life, then there are steps you can take as a parent to remove the "filth" from your kid. Home schooling, no TV, no popular music.
So I have two propositions of my own.
Either take marriage out of the law, or support the part
of the constitution where it says all men are equal and deserve equal rights.
You remind me so much of myself haha. Several years ago, when I first came to bloop, I published an entry like this (although it was much more....crude) and it lacked some sources. Youtube was just starting up back then lol.
Either way, Props. Chances are I'll be writing my own dissertation to add to the discussion later on.
Canada, in parts, is fairly open about homosexuality.
While I am straight myself, I believe you should be able to marry who you love, regardless of gender etc. And the Bible, isn't good backup. I was raised Catholic but no longer believe in the religion, and its far too flawed.
Well i don't really believe in gay marriage. However i believe that there should be some kind of partnership between the two. Like it could be the same thing as marriage, straight people could get the same too if they wanted, but my point is that It should be called "marriage" and yes i love men and women both. I just believe in marriage at all for all types of sexes.