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New beginnings- Army Life
by beppylou

previous entry: Babies heartbeat

next entry: Military respects

Abortion thoughts... continued

08/26/2011

So i had wrote a previous entry on recollecting hearing my babies heartbeat for the first time. Which led me to not understand how people cannot recognize abortion to be wrong, especially after hearing the heartbeat.
I had comments about me idolizing babies, and that I didn't understand but I, in a small way do, was raped. I know the pain involved and I don't idolize babies, but life. I see a baby, unborn or born, as alive. That means at a certain point during the pregnancy, when the heart begins to beat, it is alive and therefor abortion is murder.
Defined partial birth abortion:
"Partial birth abortion, medically known as intact dilation and extraction (IDX), is a method of late-term abortion that ends a pregnancy and results in the death and intact removal of a fetus from the uterus."
This particular form is/has been outlawed in the united States, however, it is still practiced in many countries and our dear president is for it.

Although abortion, can mean and has many definitions the main one is this:
abortion /abor·tion/ (ah-bor´shun)
1. expulsion from the uterus of the products of conception before the fetus is viable.
2. premature stoppage of a natural or a pathological process.

Life, is given and taken by many people, for reasons we cannot always understand. I wish we valued life the way the world used to. Taking time to understand, that life is important and useful. We don't accept murder of a born child, adult or older people.
mur·dered, mur·der·ing, mur·ders
v.tr.
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate

And yet, abortion once a life has begun is accepted? I know that there are reasons that it is, specific to the nature of how they got the fetus. However, does it change the fact that it is a life? Does it change the fact that, that child didn't perform the act putting it there? These are the kinds of questions we need to ask. At what point, is it unethical to kill a baby, that will turn into a child'; adult or a elderly person?

previous entry: Babies heartbeat

next entry: Military respects

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"our dear president is for it"

When did Obama say he was in favor of partial birth abortions?????

[Emily the StrangeStar|0 likes] [|reply]

When Obama was an Illinois state senator, he voted against a bill protecting victims of failed partial birth abortions. In other words, Obama supports the killing of babies born alive after an attempted abortion gone wrong. His voting record on this issue is a matter of public record.

[MadeToShineStar|0 likes] [|reply]

Oh, SB 230. The famous "Obama's a baby killer" bill. Gotcha. Thanks, not gonna get into a political debate in someone elses diary.

[Emily the StrangeStar|0 likes] [|reply]

As an Illinois resident, that horrified me. Not sure how such a bill could ever be rationalized or referred to sarcastically. If you'd like to PM me your response, feel free.

Here are further bills if you find SB 230 too trivial:

http://www.lifenews.com/2010/11/07/obamaabortionrecord/

@beppylou, you will likely find this link helpful as well for future reference.

[MadeToShineStar|0 likes] [|reply]


Interestingly, in the Bible, according to God's laws, killing an unborn baby is not the same as murder - and that's when someone else kills an unborn baby by attacking a pregnant woman, rather than the woman herself killing it. It's still seen as wrong, and they are punished for it, but they are not given the death penalty. But if they kill the woman, that is murder, and they are put to death.
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one
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[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

Can you refer me to which verse you're talking about?

[MadeToShineStar|0 likes] [|reply]


You know the laws that God gives Moses? I don't remember the exact verses, but it'd be somewhere in Leviticus. You'll see it when you read the Bible - like, when you go read through the Bible, do you read through in order? When you get to Leviticus, then look out for it. Along with the laws about what happens if someone kills someone by accident, etc.
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one
 today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today!

[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]


I'm a bit mean - I could find the verses by doing a search - but I always think it's good for people to search the Bible themselves, to find things in context and work things out for themselves. Heh - that sounds really patronising, but I don't mean it like that. I mean, I understand you're also a Christian, so I imagine you read the Bible, and if you are looking up what God says about an issue, it's better for you to do this in detail, prayerfully, and see what the whole Bible has to say (well, the whole of this passage in Leviticus) rather than me just give you a verse. Leviticus isn't a very long book, so won't take long to read. Although, it is also possible it could be in Exodus or Deuteronomy - maybe repeated more than once. But it shouldn't be hard to find.
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one
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[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

I'm a little late to reply and I noticed Christina didn't reply but I am going to do my own research because I have read the Bible through MANY times and have never read such a verse.

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]


Maybe you were skim reading? It's part of the laws God gives Moses - like, there are loads of laws, one after the other. The bit I'm referring to is more than one verse. It's a whole passage, about the different punishments for different crimes.
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today!

[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

ha ha. Skim reading? No. I wasn't skim reading. I am going to re-read it. Do you even have any idea how the passage goes?

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]


Well, skim reading wouldn't be so odd - most people skim read when it's a long repetitive list. I certainly do. I don't read the repetitive lists in great detail each time I read the Bible! But sometimes I do, especially with the various laws (not so much with details on how to build the ark!). The passage 'goes' like the rest of the laws on behaviour, and wording will vary depending on which version of the Bible you read. I read a different one each time I read the Bible, for variety and to reduce the brain's tendency to skim the familiar. Something along the lines of 'if any man strike ...' and then the various options, depending on whether the strike leads to death, injury or the death of an unborn child. There are also rules about striking slaves. Do you not remember it at all?
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one
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[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

I do remember. If I remember correctly what you are referring to is in Exodus. And God does not say that you can kill an unborn child and it is not murder.

First and foremost, Leviticus 24:17 states, "Anyone who takes another person's life must be put to death."

God DOES view unborn children as living, so thus abortion is considered taking another persons life.

Exodus 21:22-25 states, "Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve. 23 But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life, 24 an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, 25 a burn for a burn, a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise."

What this verse is stating is NOT that you can kill an unborn child and get away with it. It is saying clearly, exactly what it states. If two men are fighting a pregnat woman is struck and goes into labor and the baby is harmed from the premature labor or dies, then the person who assaulted her is to die. If death occurs. The punishment varies on the severity of the childs condition.

Also mind you God's warning a few verses about: Exodus 21:14 However, if someone deliberately kills another person, then the slayer must be dragged even from my altar and be put to death.

Aborition is deliberately killing a living child. You can see that the punishment for that in God's eyes is death.

Now in saying that, thank you Jesus for a kind, compassionate and forgiving father!

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]


Yes, God said that people who murder are put to death, as you cited. However, he also said people who kill unborn children are not put to death - they have a different, lesser punishment. Which would suggest that the crime is not seen on the same level as murder.

It's still seen as wrong, of course, as I said. Do you not see the distinction I was making? To me it seems wrong for Christians to go round saying that God sees killing an unborn baby as murder, when actually God made a distinction.

I'm not sure you found the verses I was talking about though - the one you cite doesn't mention the baby dying. The ones I read talked specifically of the baby dying.

(And, of course there is also the question of the difference of another person doing it in an unwanted attack on a woman and a woman doing it to herself. However the Bible doesn't address a woman doing it to herself. Which is of course why it's such a controversial topic!)
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today!

[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]


Ah, I see there is a translation difference. The other translation for 'and gave birth prematurely' is 'and had a miscarriage'. That seems to be the implication. In which case, the 'no further injury' would refer to the woman herself - that she does not die. If the woman dies, then the person who struck her would also be put to death.

It would be interesting to know the Hebrew in this case, and the way in which the terminology was normally used.
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today!

[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

Murder is murder. An unborn child is a living, human being. If a woman has an abortion she has comitted murder. There is no need to argue with you because we have a difference of opinion.

I just wanted to clarify your Biblical stance; and allow others on bloop the opportunity to see that.

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]


You actually don't know what my view or my biblical stance is. I haven't said. I was simply pointing out a Bible passage that tends to be omitted in such debates, and which happens to be the only Bible passage directly about unborn babies.

My biblical stance is that the Bible should be the first point of reference for debates if one is claiming to take a Christian perspective. A lot of people have a preset stance that they've had from before they've read the Bible, and they refuse to acknowledge anything in the Bible which may challenge this view. Then it seems they are more interested in proving they're right than actually listening to what God may be saying. And to me, this is not what faith is about. I believe in letting God lead, and being open to the possibility that the Bible may say something unexpected.
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Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today!

[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

I agree to an extent. However we have to be careful not to take Biblical scripture out of context. There is no way you can state that, that verse in Exodus is stating that someone can kill an unborn child and it be OK when God clearly detests murder. You know?

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]


Yep. That is my point - that it's important not to rush in with hardcore statements, from either angle.

I don't believe I stated that killing an unborn child was okay, did I? Point out to me if I said something that you read that way. The whole time I was saying that a person attacking a woman so that her baby dies is seen as a sin, and punishable. Just a different - and lesser - punishment from murder. Which would make me, as a Christian who takes the Bible seriously, hesitate to state 'Abortion is murder!' because God seems to see it differently, and maybe the status of an unborn child is a bit different from that of a born child. And maybe God's definition of murder needs to be unwrapped a bit, as it's not necessarily as clear-cut as people often think.

But as I also said when I saw your translation was different from mine, there is likely to be some ambiguity with translation. The verses could be seen to mean two different things. Clearly this is something that biblical scholars and translators have grappled with in some depth, trying to get the correct translation, so to me that suggests it's ambiguous at best.
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one
 today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today!

[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

You are contradicting yourself; you are stating that you didn't say it was okay, but at the same time you hesitate in saying that abortion is murder. God does not see it differently.

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]


Ah, well, I happen to believe that murder is not the only sin - and the Bible does back me up in this! There are plenty of other sins described in the Bible - so to me to say something isn't okay and that it's not necessarily murder is not actually a contradiction. Do you come from a tradition where you believe the only sin is murder, and that everything else is okay?
~
Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today! Adopt one
 today! Adopt one today! Adopt one today!

[Always EstellaStar|0 likes] [|reply]

ha ha. You are all over the place. Of course I do not believe that murder is NOT the only sin; the ten commandments are one example of that and nor did I give off that impression.

And yes it is a contradiction. You must search out the truth and make a decision; either you believe it is wrong or you don't believe it's wrong and you support it.

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]

It isn't saying that the man is to die after miscarriage, premature birth etc, it is saying they are to be punished according to the fathers wishes, but if the mother dies then he must also die. It says "but if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury" further injury is anything after the miscarriage, such as the mother bleeding to death, dying from infection etc.

My bible says "she loses her offspring" (hebrew translation) not premature birth, and most others say miscarriage. This could also be why Estella isn't sure that this is the right passage.

[TransitStar|0 likes] [|reply]

Well then she will have to research and find it again; because I have read Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers last night and this morning and found no verses in reference to a person killing an unborn child being OK.

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]

I would like to step in for a second and say this. The passage we are referring to is not abortion. I know that it is definitely in reference to many things,
1. A form of abuse or fighting: the scenario is a fight that begins between 2 people and becomes about another.
2. the women: She is hit, doesn't say it has to be purposefully or accidentally, and that is the main point to the passage.
3. the child: the child is considered secondary because it was (seemingly) and accident. but more than that, it isn't that God views this as a nonliving being, it is simply because the incident was not intended on killing the child.

In this particular passage, we can see that the focus is on the incident between the men and the women. Not that both issues are not punishable but are viewed differently. Whereas, abortion is the mother deliberately getting rid of the unborn child. Now, if you want to get into whether God views it as murder you need to do more research on how God views unborn children as a whole. Not just from a abortion aspect.
There are many reasons we chose to believe in/out of abortion. One reason I see that God would say it is murder, is because it is clear in scriptures throughout that he holds all life as sacred. Trees, which do not have minds. Animals, which do not have conscience. Humans, who chose to go against him. A fetus, or embryo, is a form of life. The cell is alive and it will grow and develop.

[beppylou|0 likes] [|reply]

Agree!!!!

[queenbutterflyStar|0 likes] [|reply]

I do think it is just that you have a different translation, there is also a part in leviticus about killing a baby, I'll see if I can find it.

"Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

Ah, maybe it is the test for the new wife?

“may the LORD cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

Here is an online version so you can see all of easily.

[TransitStar|0 likes] [|reply]

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about abortions before 5 weeks gestation, when the heart isn't beating?
I share some of your opinions, but I don't think it's as black and white as you say it is.
Consider a baby that is found to be very ill through pre-natal testing, so ill that he/she won't live long should they be born, or if they do, their quality of life will be severely diminished.
And in the cases where the mother is extremely ill and abortion occurs as a result of treating the mother?
I definitely don't agree with abortion being used as birth control, but unfortunately if we made it illegal, people would still get abortions but in illegal and unsafe ways, killing their child and sometimes themselves.

[Lady Lazarus|0 likes] [|reply]

To be fair, abortions rarely happen before 5 weeks. It takes several weeks just to realise you're pregnant.

[~RedFraggle~Star|0 likes] [|reply]

I thought 5 was a very early limit to use.
Below are the current UK stats, I would prefer the numbers for each week gestation though as most occur below 9 weeks, but nine weeks is quite a long time to wait to have an abortion. I'm pleased I live in an area which the lowest current abortion rate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

[TransitStar|0 likes] [|reply]

Most of the ones I've been aware of through work are 8 - 9 weeks. Realistically I don't think it's very easy to make it much earlier because it'll usually be 4 weeks before a girl realises she's pregnant... she then has to get a GP appointment, be referred to the hospital (at least another 10 days in total), then they have to shcedule the abortion (another week or so). Plus a little thinking time is usually involved as it isn't a decision to be made lightly.

[~RedFraggle~Star|0 likes] [|reply]

heres a topic that some people will try to play god with, and guilt with.
although we like to pull out biblical truths and attatch "sin" as murder with it, yet we dont see such a heated arguement for other sin committed by these posters as being as intense. Actually all sin is the same in gods eyes. The same value.
So until you have to go thru this decision for yourself, or the action itself, its maybe best left to a quiet personal opinion , rather than trippin on the guilt and sin strings on those of us who have had to ride the stirrups.
Bad form here to present it in such a form.
I don't need to see the webster's definition of Murder !!!!

[|reply]

Random: I have to say, I'm pro-choice. And I say this because while I would never abort an unborn child, I can understand where the circumstance may have to result in having to abort. There are some situations that may call for it. My mom had to abort a child because she had ovarian cancer and it was either carry to term and lose her life, or abort the child and be there for the four kids she already had.

[The Spirit|0 likes] [|reply]

I think you bring up very good points.

[Littlest Flower|0 likes] [|reply]

I've got two fairly graphic birth stories posted on my diary. If you follow the links on my frontpage to Jimmy and Jack, the stories are linked from there. I've had two short labours, so I remember enough to write it out pretty well afterwards!

[Mojo Jojo|0 likes] [|reply]

On this entry: my thoughts about abortion from a very personal point of view are here

[Mojo Jojo|0 likes] [|reply]

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