You don't know me, and you have no idea what I would do. Just because YOU would go straight for the aggressive method doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to bully me into saying I would hit someone in the face, because I won't say that because it is not true. I would not resort to that method until I had tried every other method of restraint I knew (this guy tried NONE). And I have been taught methods of defending myself against an attack from behind, so I would certainly try those first before hitting someone in the face.

Do you realise how many aggressive patients I've had to deal with over the years? Yet I've NEVER EVER hit anyone in the face. And as I already said to Anonymous Source, if this was the only way of restraining someone in this sort of situation, then we'd have police officers hitting people in the face ALL the time. And I don't know about over there, but here we certainly don't! Our police regularly have to deal with aggressive members of the public, and they almost always use other methods of restraint. I have never heard of one hitting someone (male or female) in the face, and they rarely even have to use a tazer. Because there are OTHER, safer means of restraining someone. This guy had other options, he just CHOSE to ignore them.

And the woman assualted the police officer, no-one is denying that! We are simply saying that pushing someone (something which clearly wouldn't have caused a guy his side any physical harm) justifies a punch to the face... an assault which can cause broken bones or even brain damage if done with enough force. Self defence is defending oneself from harm. Hitting someone in the face is clearly intended to CAUSE harm. Hitting someone in the face is NOT self defence.

As for this...

Anybody with a brain knows that police officers work at their own discretion.

Well that may well be the case over there (it is not here), but that doesn't make it right.

You don't really have to agree with it, yo. I don't sometimes either. But not everything is textbook black and white. This was a situation among other situations, and I promise you this isn't a textbook arrest. The reason this isn't "assault" is because the officer made a judgment in a tense situation where his life could have potentially been in danger (whether or not you see her grabbing for his belt is irrelevant, the fact is, she could have been at some point had he not hit her). He probably should get a slap on the wrist and be on his way. You don't attack a police officer for speaking to you about jay walking.

I know this wasn't a textbook arrest, but I also don't believe for a second that police officers all over the world aren't regularly having to restrain people who are being aggressive towards them. And the vast majority do NOT NEED to punch the person in the face to achieve this. So why exactly was this guy different?

As for the assault thing, I think we are both just using different definitions of the word. And really it is irrelevant. What matters is that there are OTHER, SAFER means of self defence and of restraining someone, but he chose not to use them because he preferred to hit her in the face.

And you can't say "she might have done this" as a justification for him hitting her in the face... if a patient verbal threatens me, my intial response isn't to hit them in the face just because they MIGHT get physical or MIGHT have a weapon. That would CLEARLY be unnaceptable. If I saw good evidence of the fact then that would be different, but there was NO evidence of her going for his belt.

And for like the hundredth time NO-ONE has said it is acceptable for her to attack the police officer. And yet again I will say she deserved to be restrained and punished appropriately. She did NOT deserve to get hit in the face.

This is America, and HERE you don't lay your hands on a police officer...period. The police officer hit her ONCE. O-N-C-E. People can sit there all day and claim they wouldn't do it, too bad I can't put you to the ultimate test. When someone is mouthing you and pushing you from behind, that person has EVERY RIGHT to turn around and punch that person.

And what other forces could he have used on an enraged African American woman? Please, enlighten me, Red.

This is America, and HERE you don't lay your hands on a police officer...period.

Again, no-one has suggested her behaviour was acceptable.

The police officer hit her ONCE. O-N-C-E.

And this makes it ok how? Exactly how many punches do you see as acceptable? One? Two? Five? More? Where does it cross the line? And it only takes one blow to the head to kill someone.

People can sit there all day and claim they wouldn't do it, too bad I can't put you to the ultimate test.

Again with you presuming you know us better than we know ourselves. Do you realise how arrogant you sound? And FYI I HAVE been pushed and shoved from behind before by aggressive girls (usually in nightclubsor at concerts or festivals) and I have NEVER hit any of them in the face.

When someone is mouthing you and pushing you from behind, that person has EVERY RIGHT to turn around and punch that person.

That's what your law says is it?

And what other forces could he have used on an enraged African American woman? Please, enlighten me, Red.

Firstly, what has her race got to do with anything? Secondly, there's plenty of methods of restraint that don't require punching someone in the face. I was taught a few of them when I worked in psych, and the police use them regularly too. Go to YouTube and put in "methods of restraint"

And this makes it ok how? Exactly how many punches do you see as acceptable? One? Two? Five? More? Where does it cross the line? And it only takes one blow to the head to kill someone.

Every police brutality video I watch, it seems like a police officer took it upon themselves to beat them...making several blows towards the head. This was one smack, and that's it. And, apparently, me and you have different views on self defense.

People can sit there all day and claim they wouldn't do it, too bad I can't put you to the ultimate test.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was arguing self defense with a pacifist.

Senate Bill 6317 - Assault of a Police Officer

A sentencing enhancement of three years is added for any conviction for Assault First Degree or Assault Second Degree involving a deadly weapon if the victim is a police officer who was performing his or her official duties.

State law says police can use deadly force to protect themselves or others from what they "reasonably believe" to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.

Firstly, what has her race got to do with anything? Secondly, there's plenty of methods of restraint that don't require punching someone in the face. I was taught a few of them when I worked in psych, and the police use them regularly too. Go to YouTube and put in "methods of restraint"

Because the assailant was an African American female, and the police officer was a Caucasian male...does this not scream "profiling" or "racism"? Of course any attorney would love to have this case. (I, personally, don't think that this had anything to do with either, but I'm sure the black community in that county will say different). It wouldn't have mattered if he would have tased, pepper sprayed, or simply forced her onto the pavement to handcuff her...any of it would have been "unfair", because either way that you look at it, jaywalking isn't a serious crime...in your county.

Every police brutality video I watch, it seems like a police officer took it upon themselves to beat them...making several blows towards the head. This was one smack, and that's it.

And what exactly is the definition of a video of 'police brutality'? Because someone else entitles it as such? Some people would argue that THIS was a demonstration of police brutality. You've still failed to explain why one punch is OK but repeated punches marks a crossing of the line.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was arguing self defense with a pacifist.

Pacifism
1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance

So actually, no. I am not against all violence or all war, depending on the situation. I am simply against UNNECESSARY violence. And this, given that there are other means of restraining someone, was unnecessary.

Because the assailant was an African American female, and the police officer was a Caucasian male...does this not scream "profiling" or "racism"?

No, I don't think so at all. I think there would have been the exact same response if he'd hit a white woman, and there certainly should have been. Her race is irrelevant. Even a white woman would have good grounds for taking legal action.

It wouldn't have mattered if he would have tased, pepper sprayed, or simply forced her onto the pavement to handcuff her...any of it would have been "unfair", because either way that you look at it, jaywalking isn't a serious crime...in your county.

You've entirely missed my point. AGAIN. I'm getting tired of repeating this over and over and over when you don't listen... THE GIRL COMMITTED A CRIME. SHE DESERVED TO GET ARRESTED AND RESTRAINED. Do you hear me now?? I have never said otherwise. I have simply argued that she should have been restrained by some other physical means that did not involve hitting her in the face.

And what exactly is the definition of a video of 'police brutality'? Because someone else entitles it as such? Some people would argue that THIS was a demonstration of police brutality. You've still failed to explain why one punch is OK but repeated punches marks a crossing of the line.

Brutality: the quality of being brutal; cruelty; savagery. How was punching her one time cruel? Now if he continuously kept beating her, then yes, I could see where police brutality would come into play.

Pacifism
1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance

So actually, no. I am not against all violence or all war, depending on the situation. I am simply against UNNECESSARY violence. And this, given that there are other means of restraining someone, was unnecessary.

So when is violence necessary?

Because the assailant was an African American female, and the police officer was a Caucasian male...does this not scream "profiling" or "racism"?

My apologies, I forget that you reside somewhere else other than the United States. HERE, when something like this occurs, the minority usually has fits and marches because they tend to think police officers use "profiling" methods.

It wouldn't have mattered if he would have tased, pepper sprayed, or simply forced her onto the pavement to handcuff her...any of it would have been "unfair", because either way that you look at it, jaywalking isn't a serious crime...in your county.

And you have still FAILED to mention what you would do in this scenario...I know you wouldn't have gotten "physical". So what would you do? Beg her to go away? Offer her a cookie to sit down? You get my point...

How was punching her one time cruel?

Lol. You're just avoiding my question by substituting the term 'brutality' for the world cruel! So I'll ask again, why is it that you see repeated blows to the face as cruel, but you see a single blow to the face as NOT cruel? And in view of the fact you don't see a blow to the face as cruel, I guess you use punches to the face as a method of discipline? I mean afterall, if it's not cruel, why wouldn't you? I mean if it's not cruel, surely your children wouldn't be bothered by a little blow to the face?

I'll tell you why it IS cruel... it can cause SERIOUS HARM... broken nose, broken facial bones, airway problems, blood clot on the brain, blindness, even death. The INTENTION of punching someone to the face is to knock them out, hence the INTENTION of hitting someone in the face is to CAUSE BRAIN DAMAGE. Not cruel?!?

And this, given that there are other means of restraining someone, was unnecessary.

So when is violence necessary?

Did you READ what I SAID?!? I said PUNCHING HER IN THE FACE was NOT necessary, because there are OTHER METHODS of restraining someone. I think 'violence' is rarely necessary in this situation, which is NOT the SAME as saying 'physical force' is not necessary (clearly it was). I am not going to sit here and list for you the levels of physical force I find appropriate in every single POSSIBLE hypothetical situation, because that would be ridiculous (and take all day), and obviously it depends on each individual decision.

But if you NEED an example of my non-pacifism, I would see it as acceptable to go to war if a country has evidence of weapons of mass destruction (note this is not me saying "I agree with the Iraq war" because as it turns out there was probably no evidence in that case). But the point of this thread is not to discuss the rights and wrongs of war.

HERE, when something like this occurs, the minority usually has fits and marches because they tend to think police officers use "profiling" methods.

I'd be interested to hear from other Americans if they all perceive this in the same way.

I think you've got muddled with your last couple of paragraphs, because you've posted something YOU said, not something I said!

As for this...

And you have still FAILED to mention what you would do in this scenario...I know you wouldn't have gotten "physical". So what would you do?

Can you READ?!? I have said REPEATEDLY that if I was that police officer (which is not the same as me being me, a member of the public) I would have used OTHER methods of PHYSICAL RESTRAINT. I have said this over and over and over and you keep ignoring it!! These are methods used EVERY day by police officers when dealing with aggressive members of the public. There are methods of getting a holf of someone's arms (sometimes their hair) and getting them to the ground where they can be restrained. It has been 3 years since I worked in psych, so I can't remember completely how to describe them, but as I have already said, if you put "Methods of Restraint" into YouTube you will find hundreds of videos showing these methods.

If it was me, a member of the public who was being pushed, I wouldn't try to restrain her. I would use methods of self defence if I had to, and walk away.

And so NOPE, I do not get your point at all. There are PLENTY of methods of PHYSICAL RESTRAINT that do not involve punching someone in the face. Do you seriously believe that EVERY time a police officer has to physically restrain someone, they resort to punching those people in the face? Of course they don't! They use OTHER methods. Just as this guy COULD have.

I'm still waiting for you to confirm that you'd happily punch your child in the face, given that punching someone in the face isn't cruel?

Or do you want to think again about that statement?

Punching my child in the face?? Really? I'm going to punch my one year old in the face??? Wow....Number One: I don't push, slap, hit, or pinch my child. She's one and a half!!! And I try to resort to time outs, just so she doesn't grow up thinking aggression is the route to go. (Unlike the girl in the video) Number Two: If my SEVENTEEN year old daughter had the gall to assault a police officer, hell, she'd deserve a good smack in the mouth. I bet she'd never do it again.

Punching my child in the face?? Really? I'm going to punch my one year old in the face???

Why not? Given that a single punch to the face is "not cruel"?

@RedFraggle

Because a one year old can sustain a punch to the face like a 17 yr old ADULT can? Sure...mmhmm...ok.

@ miss.ratitude

Because a one year old can sustain a punch to the face like a 17 yr old ADULT can? Sure...mmhmm...ok.

Are you saying you believe a punch in the face to an adult to be harmless?!?

So I guess YOU would punch your 17 year old in the face whenever you feel like it would you? After all, it's not cruel, and a 17 year old is an adult.

Do you even understand the magnitude of what you're saying? What does the fact that she's African American have to do with the manner in which the cop was supposed to restrain her? Are African American women more prone to rage than white women? Now I'm the one who wants to be enlightened!!!

As a lawyer can you confirm that this woman's case wouldn't be any stronger than a white woman's case in the same position? Just to calm the racists among us.

i cannot give my legal opinion on the matter, because I'm not a lawyer in the State where this happened, but based on the video, the police officer used excessive force to restrain the woman; not to mention, like it's been discussed, it could be argued that he used deadly force. With just those facts a good lawyer could argue police brutality and get a nice settlement whether the plaintiff is white, black or any other color.

Wait! I thought you hated this country. Now we're fortunate to live in the US of A?

I hate what this country has become, and I would much rather live here than in other country. I guess you're still hooked on the previous forum. Poor girl.

I'm sorry. I had you mistaken for a consistent person. My apologies.

That doesn't surprise me. After all you've already demonstarted in other forum threads that you have no interest in learning about any of the world that exists outside of America, so how would you know how better off you could be elsewhere?

And America is welcome to you!

Damn, typo. Obviously that should read 'demonstrated'.

Judging by what I see in the U.S...the college that I go to is filled with people from all over the world...and a lot of them seem smug and downright rude. Again...this is a new forum.

Lol. Did you SERIOUSLY just imply that anyone who comes from outside the USA is "smug and rude"?!?

Hahahahahaha. Oh once again, ignorance reigns!

No, Red, that is NOT what I said...I said and I quote "a lot of them seem smug and downright rude". What does a lot mean where you hail from?? Here it means "Very many, a large number"...now with that being said...Lol. Did you SERIOUSLY just imply that anyone who comes from outside the USE is "smug and rude"?! Now "anyone" means any person at all; anybody. See the difference?