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Discussion Forums » General Discussion
The Business of Being Born Documentary.... What
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31 Jan 2009, 19:53
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
I don't know about paeds, but nurses can now train exclusively in psych, without doing general nursing training. Midwifery is completely seperate too, but like psych, it wasn't always.
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31 Jan 2009, 19:59
Estella
Post Count: 1779
GOSH, YO - ARE YOU SURE? IS THIS A DIFFERENT SORT OF TRAINING FROM THE DIPLOMA/DEGREE ROUTE? JUST BECAUSE I WAS GOOGLING ABOUT IT JUST NOW AND APPARENTLY TRAINING STILL CONSTITUTES DOING ONE OF THE FOUR BRANCHES, WITH ONE YEAR OF COMMON FOUNDATION TRAINING: LOOK, YO!
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31 Jan 2009, 20:03
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Well, perhaps I'm wrong! (Well, it happens from time to time ;)) Do they have to register their speciality at the start? Perhaps that's how I came to think psych nurses didn't do general training. I'm sure some of the older psych nurses I worked with told me that the newer ones don't have to do general nursing anymore. Perhaps they meant that when they trained they had to do a full nursing degree/diploma and THEN specialise in psych, rather than specialising as early as their second year of nursing school.
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31 Jan 2009, 20:09
Estella
Post Count: 1779
YES, YO - I THINK THEY DO HAVE TO REGISTER THEIR SPECIALITY AT THE START.

I THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS, AS YOU SAY, THAT THE OLDER PSYCH NURSES DID A FULL COURSE OF GENERAL TRAINING (I DON'T THINK IT WAS A DEGREE BACK THEN - IT WAS ALL HANDS ON HOSPITAL TRAINING) AND THEY SPECIALISED AFTER, WHEREAS THE PSYCH NURSES NOW JUST DO ONE YEAR OF GENERAL TRAINING (WHICH IS NOT VERY MUCH, AND DOESN'T GIVE THEM THE DEPTH AND BREADTH OF KNOWLEDGE THAT OLDER PSYCH NURSES WOULD HAVE). BUT YOU MIGHT NOT BE WRONG - THERE ALWAYS SEEM TO BE NEW WAYS OF TRAINING, SO MAYBE THERE IS A ROUTE BY WHICH NURSES DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY GENERAL TRAINING AT ALL.

AND ACCORDING TO THAT SITE I LINKED TO, IT'S NOW POSSIBLE TO DO JOINT SOCIAL WORK TRAINING WITH EITHER PSYCH NURSE TRAINING OR LEARNING DIS TRAINING. THIS SEEMS A JOLLY GOOD IDEA TO ME, AS THE TWO ARE LINKED SO VERY MUCH THAT THERE IS OFTEN NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ROLE OF A MENTAL HEALTH SOCIAL WORKER AND A MENTAL HEALTH NURSE.
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31 Jan 2009, 19:01
Makayla
Post Count: 751
I don't think you are getting my point, you are taking stuff out of context and running with it. I never said that knowledge was everything you needed. Experience is a great necessity. Knowledge should never take the place of experience. What I said was that I would like someone that had more knowledge than someone that couldn't handle my pregnancy if I did have complications. I personally believe that an obgyn is better than a midwife. You believe that a midwife is better than obgyn. You are not going to change my opinion and I have not tried to change yours. Just simply gave you the reasons why.

And yes, my obgyn was with me when I went into labor he came in on a Sunday morning at 4:30am to be with me, and stayed until I delivered my baby at 6:54am. Did he stay in the room the entire time with me? No, I wouldn't want him too anyways. Some docters aren't like that, but on your first pre-natal apt they will tell you their policies on that.

Yes, I meant there instead of their (how silly of me to mistype something). But did I ever say their was never such a thing of a uncomplicated delivery? No, I didn't. So why are you trying to capitilize IS in your sentence saying there is such a thing? I can't stand having a debate with someone who tries to prove something to me that I already know. The only thing I said was I didn't think there was such a thing as a ordinary or normal delivery which you agreed with me on. So where is the arguement or point you are trying to make with your 5th paragraph.

Yes, I did get an epidural done by a CRNA. That was the only thing that happened to me that my docter didn't do himself. What I meant by deal with everything is he can see me through the whole process, maybe not do every procedure, but he will still be the one delivering my baby at the end of the day. If I had started out with a midwife in the beggining I would have had to switch to a obgyn in the 8th month, because that's when my complications arose. So there for I would have been stuck going to see someone who had never seen me the whole time I was pregnant, and I would be delivering in one month.

Well Im tired debating it. Basically my opinion is I think an obgyn is better, you think a midwife is. Not right or wrong there.
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31 Jan 2009, 19:05
Makayla
Post Count: 751
By the way, I noticed some grammar errors on my part. But seriously don't take the time to point them out to me, it's really pointless bc I already know. I'm not writing this for an English lesson. Thank you.
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31 Jan 2009, 19:20
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
I never said "a midwife is better than obgyn". It's impossible to generalise like that. All I have said is that midwives (here in the UK) have more experience at caring for women during labour and UNCOMPLICATED DELIVERIES (I have never suggested they are better at dealing with a woman during complicated deliveries, or antenatally) than obstetricians do.

Here in the UK every pregnant woman has an obstetrician who they see antenatally (as well as seeing midwives to discuss their birth plan etc). The emphasis is not on choosing one or the other, but on a team approach to care. Both obstetricians and midwives are involved... and each have different roles. There is combined care for every pregnant woman, but when she enters the labour ward, she is allocated a midwife who will care for her on a personal basis up until delivery. That role is one that only midwives have experience in. British obstetricians very rarely get involved during labour, unless there are problems. And in that role (caring for women with uncomplicated labour and delivery), midwives have more experience... but when there are complications, obstetricians are the ones best qualified to sort the problems out.

If we used you as an example, if you were pregnant in the UK you would already have an obstetrician, before your problems arose... and when they did, the obstetrician would have discussed plans for the delivery, and any potential complications for you. If they had any concerns, they would have ensured the oncall obstetrician was involved with the delivery.

And although this isn't an English lesson, it would be helpful if your sentences actually made sense, as it's difficult to understand your point when the grammar is so confusing.

Here in the UK we don't have CRNAs. Epidurals are done by anaesthetists. How interesting you should mention that though... you mean to say you wouldn't have preferred an anaesthetist to a CRNA? Afterall, anaesthetists have had a far longer education. ;) Given that you won't trust someone without a medical degree to care for you during your pregnancy, I'm amazed you trusted someone without a medical degree to stick an 8cm needle into your spine! Lol. That's just too funny.
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31 Jan 2009, 19:28
Makayla
Post Count: 751
"I never said "a midwife is better than obgyn". It's impossible to generalise like that." That is exactly what Im trying to say.
I would never want someone other than my husband being with me on a personal level while I am giving birth, so a midwife would not be beneficial to me.

Yes, I did realize after the fact, that I had recieved my epidural from a CRNA. I was in so much pain I didn't ask. I would have prefered an anaesthetists to a CRNA.

Actually, my sentences make alot of sense. My grammar is not that bad. My typing isn't that great though, and when I am typing alot Im going to make mistakes.
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1 Feb 2009, 10:49
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Interesting... if you'd specifically requested an anaesthetist to do your epidural, you may well have got someone like me, who's just recently started the obstetric part of their anaesthetic training, and done maybe only 10 - 15 epidurals. Admittedly I have a medical degree though. So would you still prefer to have me doing your epidural over a CRNA who's probably done hundreds of epidurals (but doesn't have a medical degree)?

(Not that I'm not perfectly competent when it comes to epidurals... but due to my inexperience, I often struggle with the more difficult ones, and then have to call for someone else to come help me. But I'm just trying to make you think a little about this)
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31 Jan 2009, 19:30
Makayla
Post Count: 751
By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually a docter, seeing as you have the attitude and arrogancy of one. You only see your side and think you are right about everything.
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31 Jan 2009, 19:35
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Lol. Of course I think I'm right. Just as you think you're right. Does that mean you're arrogant too? ;) The difference is that my opinion is based on actual experience of working on a labour ward, with both midwives and obstetricians. While yours is based on a totally unfounded prejudice, when you've had no personal experience of midwives, and have very little understanding of how medical/nursing/midwife training actually works. I'm not telling you anything that any doctor, nurse or midwife wouldn't tell you. I guess everyone who works in healthcare must be arrogant then.

And is someone suggesting I'm not a doctor? (Apart from silly Illie that is)
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31 Jan 2009, 19:50
Makayla
Post Count: 751
Well you have never EXPERIENCED birth have you? So by your theory you don't know what you would do if you were pregnant. I never said I think Im right, I said I had a different opinion. Frankly, Im tired of typing this over and over, but you just don't seem to get it. It's TWO DIFFERENT OPINIONS.
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31 Jan 2009, 19:59
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
I don't have to have experienced birth to have observed how midwives deal with their patients, and to know how competent and experienced they are. I work with them. I also work with the obstetricians. It is quite clear that they are both very capable, but have different roles and areas of expertise.

My point is just that you have only experienced contact with obstetricians. You have probably never even met a midwife, so how can you have any idea of how knowledgable or competent they are?

Yes, it's two different opinions. But I believe my opinion (that being that midwives have the most experience and knowledge when it comes to caring for a woman during an uncomplicated delivery) is right, based on my own observations and experience. I'm assuming you believe your opinion (that midwives are less knowledgable than obstetricians) is right too, or you wouldn't be discussing this. So we both think we're right, and I guess must both be terribly arrogant then.

Yes, I'm tired of discussing it too. I'll clearly never change your prejudice, but I'm glad to see some comments from some more open minded Americans on here at least.
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1 Feb 2009, 01:34
Fiat
Post Count: 288
You've done a very good job articulating your points. I agree with them all.

Obviously, there's a lot of misunderstanding about birth in the American culture. What's really horrifying is that many of our doctors think in a similar mindset as the girl you were debating with here. You're right - it's prejudice. No one is saying obstetricians are bad (as your friend above has accused you of saying). But it would be nice to be allowed a midwife experience without all this arguing about credentials.

Did you get a chance to see the documentary yet?
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1 Feb 2009, 10:54
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
No, I assumed I wouldn't be able to see it since I'm in the UK. Is it on YouTube? I'd be interested to see it actually. Did they show the UK at all? I wonder if more Americans could see how well midwives and obstetricians work together in the UK, if it would help get rid of some of the ignorance surrounding the issue.
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1 Feb 2009, 15:14
+& HelloKatie
Post Count: 17
I can't seem to find it on YouTube. I watched it on NetFlix...I'm not sure you have that in the UK. You might be able to find it in a video store? I'm fairly sure (unless my memory is failing me...) that they only featured Americans. However, they did make the point that all other developed countries utilize midwives at a much higher rate than the US, and have better outcomes.
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1 Feb 2009, 15:32
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
I had a look at netflix, but I really don't want to have to register on-line. And I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be in a video store over here.
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1 Feb 2009, 15:54
+& HelloKatie
Post Count: 17
Hmm. I'll keep looking around online :)
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1 Feb 2009, 20:30
Fiat
Post Count: 288
I'll look around too. I think you would be fascinated, being a doctor yourself and all.
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1 Feb 2009, 23:51
Fiat
Post Count: 288
You can buy the DVD here:

https://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/store_dvd.php

It's about thirty bucks though, but apparently they're now shipping to the UK. Must be a big demand for it. If I had the money I'd buy it for you - that's how much I'd love to hear your opinion! lol.
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1 Feb 2009, 23:52
Aloha♥Nui Loa
Post Count: 34
:) Another reason why I posted this forum, so women here could hear about the documentary and hopefully be interested in wanting to know more about midwives, and natural/at home births && to maybe educate themselves further than what they already know, and dont know. Because I wish I had known more about it in the beginning of my pregnancy, I would have gone that route most likely. I'm very satisfied with my obgyn, but the next time -if there is a next time!- i'll def be using a midwife!
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2 Feb 2009, 00:02
Fiat
Post Count: 288
Yeah, I'm using an OBGYN right now for my pregnancy and I wish I had a midwife. My insurance wouldn't cover one, but I keep thinking that I should have done more research into the issue. My OBGYN experience has been alright so far. It's not very personal care though (I have three different doctors who rotate). I have no idea which of the three doctors will actually deliver my baby. I'm not nervous about pain - I'm more nervous that something will happen beyond my control. Knowing I'll have a doula present is comforting.
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1 Feb 2009, 01:34
Acid Fairy
Post Count: 1849
Can I just say... LOVING the battle between you two here!! Too funny for words ;D
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1 Feb 2009, 10:55
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Always pleased to entertain. ;D It's been a while... and I do love a good debate.
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31 Jan 2009, 20:01
Estella
Post Count: 1779
HAHAHAHA - 'SILLY ILLIE'! GOSH, I AM LAUGHING OUT LOUD! AND YES, YO, RED FRAG, YOU ARE SO FULL OF NAUGHTY ARROGANCY! ;D
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