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Discussion Forums » General Discussion
DON'T GET A FLU SHOT!
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22 Oct 2009, 05:33
T.A.I
Post Count: 269
That's where you hit a brick wall with the schools though. Vaccinated or not, keeping kids out of school for extended periods of time with bring down hammers of wrath if you're not careful. The school system where I'm at, if you miss more than 5 days a year, it's considered excessive and warrants getting looked into by the county. (Not kidding. I missed 4 days in a row and letters were coming into the mailbox from the school threatening to have child services looking into it all, even though mom sent in doctors notes and whatnot for most of my absences).

5 days is the flu, bronchitis, chicken pox, hell even a bad sinus infection or cold for an elementary or middle schooler, even high school.

That's where it gets bad too. They tell you to keep your kids out of school if they're sick, but at the same time, if they miss school because they're sick, then the school bitches because teachers have to deal with makeup work and administration has to deal with those absences, etc. etc.
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19 Oct 2009, 16:30
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Out of interest though... why does ONE video of one extremely rare condition which MAY be linked to a vaccine support your decision... yet those photos of the equally severe (and far more common) complications of the disease you prevent not make a difference to you?

I'm genuinely curious, to understand your thought process which brought you to your decision.
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19 Oct 2009, 17:36
just samma;
Post Count: 204
It doesn't make a difference to me right now because it is not something i am researching and discussing on a daily basis right now.
This is a topic that i will continue to study even after the exemptions are signed. Things change & our choice may as well.
We will be delaying vaccinations until our children are 24 months old, so when the time comes, i'll get back in the grind on researching, discussing things with my partner and we will make a decision.
I'm not anti-vax, i'm just not pro-vax either.



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19 Oct 2009, 17:40
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
I understand delaying the MMR until 2 years (even although there is absolutely no evidence to support the opinion that there is a link to autism), but out of interest... why have you chosen 24 months as the point to delay the others to? Presumably your kids will be in contact with other children earlier than that? And kids spread diseases very easily (it doesn't require an 'outbreak' for your child to be at risk). Do you believe the other vaccines to be safer after this point? And if so, where did you find this information?

I'm genuinely curious for the reason for choosing 24 months.
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19 Oct 2009, 18:12
just samma;
Post Count: 204
i'm not comfortable with the current vax schedule. Throwing that much stuff into my young child's body before their immune system has been given the chance to mature or build an immunity just doesn't rest easily with me.
With our plan to home school & exclusively breast-feed until 6-8 months my child wouldn't be exposed to a lot of the illnesses that they would receive a vax for if we followed the recommended schedule.
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19 Oct 2009, 18:47
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
So why not just negotiate a schedule that you're more comfortable with? I know another diarist on here who did that.

I get your point on the breast feeding etc... but that's only 6 - 8 months... you're saying you're not going to vaccinate for 2 years. So why are you delaying it to 2 years instead of 8 months? What protection will you be providing for the rest of that time?

And the question is WHY doesn't it 'doesn't rest easily' with you? Just because the thought of something makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it is actually harmful. Have you read some sort of evidence to suggest that under the age of 2 years a baby's immune system cannot cope with the vaccines? And even the ones which aren't live vaccines?
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19 Oct 2009, 20:33
just samma;
Post Count: 204
That is what we are doing. Delaying & selectively vax'ing.
As i said before i am not anti-vax. There are several that we are considering, whether or not we decide to go through with them will depend on our situation at the time.
On the current CDC by the time a child reaches the age of two he or she will have received 32 vaccinations. That number has just increased over the years, there have been no studies[ that i have read] that show this is a safe amount. But the numbers of children with neurologic and immune system disorders has increased even more rapidly. Now, do i think there is a link between vaccines CAUSING ASDs. No.
I look at it this way:
I am going to do EVERYTHING in my power to ensure my children are not formula fed because i'm not comfortable with the possibility of contamination.
So if i'm trying to avoid toxins there & I wouldn't inject myself with thimerosal, formaldehyde, animal DNA, aluminum and other toxins into my bloodstream so why would i do it to my child before their brain development has even reached 80% complete?


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19 Oct 2009, 20:40
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
So what worries you is the thought of the components in the vaccine? It's not due to evidence you've seen actually showing them to be harmful?

The websites who list these ingredients are using scare tactics. Not to mention the fact that half the time the ingredients they claim to be in vaccines probably aren't even true. And even when they are... if there's no evidence to suggest they cause harm, is it good justifcation for putting your child at risk of diseases like measles?

The increase in neurological and immune disorders could be due to any number of environmental factors. This is not evidence that vaccines are harmful. And it appears that you're aware of that, so I'm a little confused. You don't believe there is a link between vaccines and these conditions... so why would you risk your child catching measles or meningitis which could kill or severely disable them?
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19 Oct 2009, 20:50
just samma;
Post Count: 204
Scare tactics or not, they are there.
Yanno, i think we've debated this before & i don't think it went anywhere then. Your opinion is slanted because of your profession and mine is slanted because i'm going to take the "crunchy" route in my parenting and life decisions.
Yes, measles & meningitis could harm my child, just like the vaccine could.
I feel confident in my decision not to vax my family, just as i feel confident in my choice to homeschool and extend breast feeding past 24 months.
Some may not not feel comfortable doing those things. That doesn't make either of us wrong.
I have my opinion, you have yours and i doubt any information that could be thrown around would change that.
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19 Oct 2009, 22:51
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
I'm actually just genuinely interested to hear people's reasons. I'm trying to understand, that's all. And if you make such a choice, you should surely be confident enough in your decision and your reasons to be able to justify it to those who ask questions, no?

An ingredient list (but acknowledgement that the vaccines don't actually cause harm) doesn't seem very good justification to me, but maybe you have other reasons that you haven't mentioned, or maybe I've misunderstood you. I ask questions only so as to understand and become more informed.

And the difference between this and the decision regarding homeschooling and breastfeeding is that neither of THOSE decisions have the potential to physically harm your child (in fact prolonged breastfeeding probably has some health benefits). Some may believe that in terms of psychological development, homeschooling MAY be harmful and some may believe that prolonged breastfeeding can also lead to psychological issues, however, it is quite clear that neither of those things put your child at risk of death or serious disability. But the decision not to vaccinate certainly does put a child at that risk. It is not the same thing.

I can't personally understand how someone can feel 'comfortable' with knowing they're putting their child (and the children of others) at risk of serious diseases which could kill or seriously disable them. But maybe that's just me. :P

And my feelings on this aren't based entirely on my profession. They are based on the fact that I make such decisions based on facts and evidence of HARM, not on a (quite possibly incorrect) ingredient list or website scare tactics. I do however feel that parents should make informed decisions and I do NOT believe that every vaccination on the American vaccination schedule is necessary for every child.
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19 Oct 2009, 22:52
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
And did you really just admit that you've based your decision on scare tactics?

Oh well, I guess many Americans do do just that... otherwise Bush never would have been re-elected a second time. (Sorry, off topic ;D)
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20 Oct 2009, 00:10
just samma;
Post Count: 204
Nice, except i'm not america. LOL
I do not base my decision on scare tactics, if that was the case i would not be pro-choice or in a same sex relationship because i'd be worried about burning in hell. :P
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20 Oct 2009, 00:47
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Apologies for assuming you were American. ;)

And you already said that you based your decision on lists of ingredients, and then you acknowledged that such lists are often just scare tactics. Hence, you said you based your decision (THIS decision, we are not discussing same sex relationships) on scare tactics.
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20 Oct 2009, 21:13
Half Dozen Mama
Post Count: 93
You can get on the FDA's website and look up package inserts for vaccines that list each and every ingredient in said vaccine. And Samma is right. Most of them do contain the ingredients she mentioned. I have spent a load of time researching vaccinations, along w/ their ingredients, straight from the Food And Drug Administrations website, which is as accurate as it gets.
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20 Oct 2009, 21:21
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
But the point is that just because an ingredient doesn't sound very nice doesn't mean it is harmful. Aluminium and formaldehyde are two examples of ingredients which scare groups claim MUST be awful things to put into your body. But there is no evidence that aluminium in vaccines is harmful, and the amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is actually much much smaller than the amount of formaldehyde the body produces itself.

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20 Oct 2009, 21:40
Half Dozen Mama
Post Count: 93
You make valid points and I do agree there are far too many fear mongers out there who make false statements regarding vaccines which may lead to naive parents making misguided decisions. However, that goes both ways. I am a delayed-selective vaccinating mother and I have never been one to read into the false scare tactics or pay any attention to the ridiculous websites ran by uneducated people claiming to be doctors. My decision to delay vaccinations for my children, and even refuse a very small few, was not made lightly.. nor was it influenced by invalid or irrelevant information. All of the information I have received was straight from the FDA and CDC.. I took the time to define each ingredient and its purpose in the vaccination.. along with its potential risks or role to my childs body. My decision was discussed with our pediatrician who thankfully had no objection and even agreed with a lot of what I had to say. My problem is I feel that vaccinations are given too soon, and in too much quantity. They treat them as if they are a "one size fits all" and I just don't feel that should be the case. My decision is not right for everyone, nor would I ever expect everyone to agree with me. But I feel it is best for my children and I, and not all of us make that decision uneducated or misinformed. I see the point of, those who dont vaccinate are putting other kids at risk.. and I understand that. It doesnt seem fair at all, and vaccinating parents have every right to be concerned about that... but some situations just feel like a "damned if you do, damed if you dont" type of thing, and in the end we just have to do what we feel is best for our children.
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20 Oct 2009, 22:13
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Well, it sounds as if you're being pretty sensible (and as I have already said, there are more vaccines on the American vaccination schedule than on the British one and I don't think the ones on the American schedule are all necessary). But unfortunately others here have shown themselves to not be so smart about their decision as you have been.

And I have no problem with parents who want to alter the timing of their vaccinations, or to omit certain vaccines, if they have good reasons (although I believe some such as measles are very much necessary, at the very least to protect other children who can't be vaccinated). The issue I have is with people who refuse to vaccinate altogether, especially when it is a decision not based on any facts or evidence.

Out of interest though, what evidence was it that convinced you that these ingredients are harmful?
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21 Oct 2009, 02:48
Half Dozen Mama
Post Count: 93
It isnt that I necessarily feel the ingredients are harmful. Though it isnt ideal to me that they use aluminum, formaldehyde, thimerasol, etc in something that is injected into the systems of children.. I do know the amount used normally isnt enough to do any harm, and each of these ingredients have their own role in the vaccine. If that were the case (me thinking they cause harm) I wouldn't vaccinate at all. I do feel that they give too many in too short of time. I don't agree with that, and know there isn't any reason they cant space them out more. I do worry that in some cases it is possible so many shots at once can have a detrimental effect on children, though rare... the chance is there and all parents I think ask themselves, "what if its my child?" So delaying & spacing makes that a little more comfortable for me. Its just my personal preference to delay, as I prefer to allow my kids systems to mature on their own before injecting substances into them. And as I said, I prefer to space them because it makes me uncomfortable that they are given so many at once. I cant help but ask the "what ifs." And the very few I don't get, is because I don't feel they are necessary at all. So again, I'm not really concerned w/ the chemicals so much as I am the quantity given at one time, and in such a short period.
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22 Oct 2009, 05:41
T.A.I
Post Count: 269
However, an immune system is built much like anti-virus software for a computer. The body comes built in with a basic identification system and some immunity to alot of common viruses and bacteria, but the body can't build an immune system against what it's never encountered. It's just that simple. The immune system isn't something that just "knows" how to get rid of bacteria and viruses innately. It has to learn how to dispose of them, which requires making antibodies that bind to those specific viruses, amongst other things.

I'm not a doctor or anything, but getting MMR at 6 months and getting MMR at 2 years doesn't make much of difference in terms of your child's immune system being able to handle it. If the body hasn't seen the virus before, age doesn't really matter. The body doesn't know what to do unless it's seen it before. I can't really think of any substantial benefit to waiting off the top of my head.
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21 Oct 2009, 17:25
Meghans Follie
Post Count: 433
I think a lot of fear in re: to this video is because of what happened in the late 70's here in the US when the gov feared a different form of swine flu - when the gov forced the vac on people and roughly %1 developed Guillain-Barre syndrome from the vac. but for people who have based their decision on that also need to rememeber that in '76 the vac was not tested before it was sent out.
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19 Oct 2009, 15:25
Mary Magdelene
Post Count: 506
No, we have other reasons for our anti-vaccine opinion. This is just one more thing that solidifies our decision. Don't assume that because people choose not to vax it means they made the decision based on one bit of information. We've done our research. And frankly, with everything I have studied about vaccinations, I happen to feel that the risks associated with getting the vaccines are greater than the risks associated with not getting the vaccines. You may not feel the same way, and you may not like my opinion, but it's my opinion and I have a right to it.
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19 Oct 2009, 15:37
Sypha Belnades
Post Count: 64
What risks? Ensuring your children lead healthier, longer lives? Ensuring that the children they come in contact with don't catch debilitating diseases? Yeah, those are completely terrible risks!

Here's the thing: you can do whatever foolishness you want to yourself, but your children do not deserve to suffer from your foolishness. And neither do others -- by not vaccinating, your are making your children into carriers that will infect people who can't get vaccinated (e.g., young babies, people with weak immune disorders, people who have allergic reactions to vaccinations). Your right to swing your fist ends where other people's faces begin, and by not vaccinating, you are compromising herd immunity and putting many people at risk, most of all your own children.

You have a right to your opinion, and we have a right to tell you that your opinion is idiotic, not based in reality, and barbarous. If there was any justice in the world, your children would be taken from you post haste.
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19 Oct 2009, 15:42
Mary Magdelene
Post Count: 506
Have you ever bothered to research what toxic chemicals go into vaccinations? Probably not, from the sounds of it. Until you do, and until you have children and have to make that decision for them, your opinion matters not one bit to me.

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19 Oct 2009, 15:47
Mary Magdelene
Post Count: 506
Wait, I take that back. Your opinion will never matter to me.
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19 Oct 2009, 16:25
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
She's making a very valid point. It's totally your right to make that decision for YOUR kids... but why should you have the right to put OTHERS at risk? As I mentioned to hollywood whore above, for children who CAN'T recieve the vaccine (e.g. those with an impaired immune system) to be protected from measles (which is even more likely to kill them than a healthy child) there needs to be a 70% herd immunity. If your child isn't vaccinated, and comes into contact with one of those children they could potentially kill them.

I know you homeschool, but do your kids play with other children? Do they attend Sunday school? Because if they do, and they're not vaccinated, then you could be putting others at risk.

So what she is saying SHOULD matter to you, because how would you feel if someone else suggested they didn't care one bit if they were putting YOUR kids at risk.
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