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Discussion Forums » General Discussion
DON'T GET A FLU SHOT!
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21 Oct 2009, 19:34
Chris
Post Count: 1938
I misread.
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21 Oct 2009, 19:55
prettylittlekitty
Post Count: 78
My son gets the seasonal flu shot every year. He has to since he has asthma. Today he is getting the H1N1 vaccine.

It's rare what happened to the girl. I just want my son to be healthy.
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21 Oct 2009, 20:03
blogger
Post Count: 18
Thank you Lady A.
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21 Oct 2009, 21:55
blogger
Post Count: 18
I don't trust WHO, I won't post research simply because I seriously have no need to waist time on trying to convince you of my opinion. I am fairly confident that you will (as seen in previous post) dismiss whatever I put up just as easily as I dismiss your links in regards to CIA findings, WHO findings....organizations I don't trust.....how can I make that any clearer?

You're a smart cookie, please, don't waist your time on me. I'm not worth it. I have children and my decisions are not solely based upon research, but the emotional attachment that comes with being a parent. Not everyone can understand that.
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21 Oct 2009, 22:08
Chris
Post Count: 1938
You should really hit "post reply" on the post you're replying to. Otherwise she has to go searching for your post and she won't get a message that you replied.
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21 Oct 2009, 22:52
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
I've already told her that. Apparently it's too complicated for her. :P That, or she doesn't really want me to see her replies because she knows how easily I'll dispute them.
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21 Oct 2009, 23:21
blogger
Post Count: 18
1. I am new to the forums at this site. I've stuck to my personal blog until now.....Forgive me for not catching on to this fast enough for you to not consider me stupid.

2. I couldn't care less how easily you dispute anything. The fact is I have been doing research on this topic for well over a decade....I know where all of it comes from. I also know people like you. You are not genuinely interested in anything I have to show to my side of it. The only reason you want to know is so you can again dismiss it. You can show me all the studies to prove your point you want.....I just don't trust the sources you are providing to be unbiased....and I'm done trying to get you to realize that.
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22 Oct 2009, 06:26
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
But you've already shown that your 'research' has resulted in you believing several false pieces of information. For example, where on earth did you find information that countries who do not vaccinate have a life expectancy of over 100? Where did you find evidence that formaldehyde in vaccines is harmful? You haven't answered any of my questions, because you can't, because you don't have actual evidence to back up anything.

WHY on earth would the WHO statistics on mortality rates and life expectancy be biased when they're not produced in any way as part of any sort of pro-vaccination campaign?? In fact I've never seen ANY pro-vaccination information that even refers to those statistics (as there's so many variables that contribute to life expectancy. As I've already said, infant mortality would be more helpful). I only posted them because you had posted incorrect information here. So WHY on earth would the WHO bother manipulating figures which they (and no-one else) have any intention of using as part of a campaign to convince people to vaccinate?

And do you really believe YOUR sources are UNbiased? Believe me, anti-vaccination groups have put A LOT of lies out there. But then they know there's people like you who will be so scared, and unable to properly assess the evidence, that you'll totally buy into it.
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21 Oct 2009, 22:46
Acid Fairy
Post Count: 1849
Why don't you trust the WHO? They don't produce results to make money out of it.

Which organisations would you trust? I find it amusing that you don't trust these big organisations yet find solace in a newspaper article. Hmm, I wonder which has more scientific evidence?

I don't care that you don't vaccinate your children since you're in a different country and it will never affect me. But what you are saying is extremely illogical, especially since you say you have a great emotional attachment. Surely protecting them against a life-threatening illness would be better justification for your attachment than denying them that?
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21 Oct 2009, 22:57
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
There is a difference between dismissing something with actual evidence and facts (as I have done in response to your comments) and just ignoring something, because you CHOOSE not to believe it (as you are doing). There is no logic to that.

If you had any evidence, you could easily produce it. You can't produce it, because you have none. You have demonstrated that already with some of the ridulously untrue statements you have made here.

And why on earth wouldn't you trust the WHO? Do you even understand what they are??

Plenty of parents are able to have an emotional attachment to their children and STILL base their decision on vaccines on facts and the evidence. You are just choosing to allow the scaremongers to use your emotions to manipulate you, and make you completely ignore the facts.
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22 Oct 2009, 06:19
T.A.I
Post Count: 269
WHO = New World Order, apparently.

At least, that's what my hippe of a mother screams from time to time.

>:(
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21 Oct 2009, 22:59
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
And it's 'waste'.

And you haven't dismissed any of my links. You have IGNORED them. You have no evidence whatsoever that shows anything I've posted to be incorrect.
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29 Oct 2009, 00:40
Mary Magdelene
Post Count: 506
I'm only back to leave this comment for you in the thread it originated in. You wanted "some" sources, here you have it.

You asked for resources. I finally found a link to one I used for my paper. There is a list of studies and articles on vaccines. I got some of my sources from there (the articles and studies, not the personal stories, support groups, or emotional responses). I can't find my actual paper, I know I have the disk somewhere and I'll be happy to send it to you once I find it. But here is the link to where I found some of my sources.

Vaccines and Scientific Studies

Please don't take this to mean I felt all the sources on this page to be reliable. And again, only a very few of my research has to do with vaccines themselves, but has more to do with the organizations and governments that fund the studies you refer to. And until I can find where I left all that information, this is going to have to suffice.

I'm not getting re-involved in this discussion. I am simply leaving this information for you.
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29 Oct 2009, 00:58
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
only a very few of my research has to do with vaccines themselves, but has more to do with the organizations and governments that fund the studies you refer to.

SERIOUSLY? You're putting your kids at risk, and it isn't even because of research you've actually done into the vaccines themselves??

And what concerns exactly is it that you have with the World Health Organisation??

I had a quick glance at that website. There's a lot of links on there, so it'll take me some time to look at them properly. One thing I will say though, from just a quick glance, A LOT of those studies are from a LONG time ago (the vast majority seem to be from before 1990 and many as far back as the 1960s and 1970s), and many of THOSE studies have since been shown by better, more up to date studies, to be incorrect and misleading. Also, vaccines are not the same today as they were back then. Certain ingredients of concern have been removed for example. So I think it would be rather risky to make a decision not to vaccinate based on studies from 40 years ago. As I said before, it's not just about having studies which agree with your opinion, but having GOOD studies. And you cannot judge today's vaccines by studies done 20 - 40 years ago.

But I will try and look at them in more depth later.
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29 Oct 2009, 01:21
Mary Magdelene
Post Count: 506
I forgot to uncheck the box, so I guess I'm answering this. *shrugs* I have to remember to uncheck the box when I don't care what happens in the thread.

Of course some of them are older. I started looking into this MANY years ago. Over a decade ago. I understand that SOME of the chemicals then in the vaccines are no longer in them. I do keep up with the studies along those lines. I also said "'Please don't take this to mean I felt all the sources on this page to be reliable'". And that's just a part of it. A VERY small part of it. I only provided this because you wanted to know where I got my information from. It's the only thing I could find so far, I'm sorry it happens to be from when I originally started researching these things (not the 60's or 70's, but the 90's)

And when you don't trust the governments or organizations who fund the research and the studies, that also means you don't trust the studies funded by those organizations or governments. I'm not sure how many times I have to say that.

One other thing to understand about me is that I have complete faith in preventative measures commonly referred to as "natural medicine". I understand not everyone has that faith in it, but I happen to believe that if people would take a more holistic approach to prevention medicine, in addition to eating healthier and exercising more, we wouldn't have to worry so much about these diseases. Your arguments for vaccinations, even if I trusted the funding of those studies, doesn't differentiate between those who eat as healthy as they possibly can (omitting processed/refined foods, for one thing) and exercise regularly, and those who do not have healthy diets.

That is how I believe. You may think my children are being put at risk because of a lack of vaccinations, but I believe my children are at less risk given their diets and overall health practices in our home than even those who have had vaccinations.
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29 Oct 2009, 01:45
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
A healthy diet is of course a good thing, but a healthy diet does NOT protect from diseases like measles and meningitis. PLENTY of children who eat good healthy diets catch these diseases and die from them.

I would be interested however, to see the evidence you have which shoes that a healthy diet is as effective as vaccines in preventing children catching these diseases?
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29 Oct 2009, 01:08
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
One other question... if I've understood rightly, you won't vaccinate your children because you don't trust the government agencies or pharmaceutical companies who have funded studies showing them to be safe, right? Well, these are the same agencies that fund MOST clinical trials, for ANY drug. So am I therefore to assume that you won't give your children ANY drug at all? I mean, if you assume vaccines are unsafe because of the method of funding of the study... then surely ALL medicines must be unsafe?

So presumably you never give your kids any medicine... no tylenol, no ibuprofen, no antibiotics, nothing, right? Because if you have such distrust for all medical studies, I assume you are consistent and apply that distrust to every drug, not just vaccines.

And if that is not the case... then why is it that you trust that those drugs are safe, but assume vaccines are not?

(These are fair questions, and it would help my understanding if you answered them... but I suspect you won't ;))
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29 Oct 2009, 01:44
Mary Magdelene
Post Count: 506
But I suspect you won't

Are you TRYING to keep me in this thread? I get done posting a response I shouldn't have bothered with anyway because I THOUGHT I unchecked the box, only to find this along with a challenge. If I were to not answer these questions, I would look like I don't have answers and therefore look like I'm just making statements without merit. But if I DO answer these questions, then it looks like I'm not staying out of it like I say I am trying to do.

Do my children get such medicines? No. They don't. And they don't need them. Number one, they very rarely get sick enough to warrant such medication use. Number two, when they do get sick, they are sick for far less time than other children because of the natural remedies we use for their illness, whatever it may be. As for antibiotics, they've never needed them. For anything.

Well, that's not ENTIRELY true. My oldest child has had medications and antibiotics. When he was a premature baby and before I had made my decision about vaccinations. My mind was not fully made up about vaccinations until my oldest was about four or five years old. But other than what he needed while in NICU, he has never had antibiotics, and only has had a very few vaccinations because he couldn't get many because of his micro-prematurity. He's 12 now, and is by no means caught up on his vaccinations. He is QUITE far behind on them. And he is the healthiest boy around.

My youngest once had an ear infection. We used natural remedies for it. It's been eight years since he's had another one, and he's never been sick in any other way to need antibiotics. And as for vaccinations, he had whatever it is they get between the ages of newborn and one year old. And that's it. Because that is the time I had my mind made up about vaccinations.

And since it was an ongoing decision, gaining information as I went along, I'm sure they probably received medications like cough syrup and ibuprofen at some point in their early lives until I came to the conclusion there were not only healthier ways of preventing disease than getting vaccinations, but there were also far healthier ways of dealing with illness once it's already active.

I realize you're probably going to ask more questions. But I'll tell you right now, you ask them here, you won't get an answer from me. I only came back to post this information for you. I've got too much going on right now to continue in this discussion with you and those who oppose my view. I have more important people to worry about in my life than an anonymous person on the internet. I've wasted enough energy worrying about stating my opinion and reasons for it.

Good night. I hope this has at least given you even a small understanding of where I stand. I bid you adieu.
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29 Oct 2009, 01:51
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
That's great that your kids haven't had much need for medications... but WHAT if they do? What if one day they do get sick, with, for example, meningitis?

Given your distrust of all medical studies... if your kid gets meningitis, what will you do then? Accept the antibiotics (bearing in mind their clinical trial were probably funded by a pharmaceutical company)? Or wait for your child to die?

I know you won't answer, but I'm guessing that presented with a very sick child you WOULD take the antibiotics (and I certainly hope you would). Although, on the other hand, accepting that you would in some circumstances use conventional medicines goes against your whole argument about distrusting clinical trials...
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29 Oct 2009, 01:53
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
(For the record I think doctors give out antibiotics far too willingly these days for things like throat infections which are usually viral, but there are some situations where antibiotics are most definitely the indicated treatment)
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29 Oct 2009, 01:55
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Oh, and ear infections will usually resolve by themselves. All antibiotics do is possibly cut the time the person has symptoms by a day or two. So the fact that your son's ear infection cleared up doesn't necessarily equate to it being cured by whatever 'natural' remedy you were using.
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29 Oct 2009, 02:16
~RedFraggle~
Post Count: 2651
Sorry, one more question...

Given your distrust of clinical trials, do you never take medications yourself? I mean, since you can't trust them, I assume you never take any prescribed drugs either?
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21 Oct 2009, 23:50
ೋMindy☆
Post Count: 58
I myself my kids and my family will all be getting both flu shots. I'd rather not take the chances with the actual Flu especially being pregnant and having young kids.
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22 Oct 2009, 18:01
- misseriin*
Post Count: 64
I have gotten my flu shot for years.
I'm fine. I have never gotten the flu.
I work with the public, I have people coughing in my face, giving me snotty money, I need the shot.

I also plan to get the H1N1 shot when they allow my age group to get it. My university is offering it!
I'm definitely pro-flue shot
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22 Oct 2009, 18:16
Sphinx
Post Count: 14
I've never gotten a flu shot. And I've also never had the flu.

My mother's friend received a flu shot a couple years back. After she received it, her immune system shut down and she lost the ability to walk (at least properly) for years. It was horrible, but I never knew it had a 'technical' name.
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